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 Post subject: Korean pro incomes
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:41 pm 
Oza

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Some figures from the Korean Treasury for average annual incomes in the arts and media indicate that the average annual income for go pros (all sources) is 28 million won, which is about US$20,000. Actors average 38 million won, singers 26 million, and models 11 million. I'd hazard a guess that the last three categories probably have a higher than usual proportion of females, which may mean these categories are depressed by wage discrimination.

Since people like Yi Se-tol and Yo Ch'ang-ho hog the bulk of the prize money at one end of the bell curve, those at the other end are really suffering for their art.

What $20,000 buys in Korea is obviously different from elsewhere, but my own assessment after several visits is that it would equate to up to double that in domestic buying power in the USA or Europe.

Still, I'd be tempted to say. Don't let you daughter be a go pro, Mrs Worthington.

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Post #2 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:50 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Some figures from the Korean Treasury for average annual incomes in the arts and media indicate that the average annual income for go pros (all sources) is 28 million won, which is about US$20,000. Actors average 38 million won, singers 26 million, and models 11 million. I'd hazard a guess that the last three categories probably have a higher than usual proportion of females, which may mean these categories are depressed by wage discrimination.

Since people like Yi Se-tol and Yo Ch'ang-ho hog the bulk of the prize money at one end of the bell curve, those at the other end are really suffering for their art.

What $20,000 buys in Korea is obviously different from elsewhere, but my own assessment after several visits is that it would equate to up to double that in domestic buying power in the USA or Europe.

Still, I'd be tempted to say. Don't let you daughter be a go pro, Mrs Worthington.


Is the baduk figure before or after the ending of game fees? Seems like the lower half of pros can't really make a living from baduk.

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 Post subject: Re: Korean pro incomes
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:23 pm 
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This brings up a related question I've wondered about: Japanese domestic tournaments pay much better than Chinese or Korean ones. The SL page says the Japanese Meijin earns about $416,000 dollars, where the Korean Myeongin only earns about $83,000. And yet Lee Changho regularly wins international titles, while Iyama Yuta is lucky to make the top 8. So why don't the top Korean and Chinese players move to Japan, where it seems like they could make more money for beating easier opponents? I can think of 3 possible reasons:

1) Maybe a sense of national pride or makes players want to play in their own countries, even if they could make more money abroad. Or maybe they just prefer to live where they grew up.
2) Either the Japanese government or the Nihon - Kiin prevent it.
3) Maybe Korean & Chinese pros would not do so well in Japanese tournaments.

1) seems the most likely, although as we've seen in football there are plenty of players who go play in a big League in Europe but still come home to play for their national team in the World Cup.

2) could be true, but if so it's kind of sad. And what about players like Go Seigen? He was obviously allowed to come from China to Japan to compete, although Go in China wasn't as developed then. If Go Seigen had been born today would he have stayed home?

3) I'm skeptical about. Japanese players regularly get trounced by Koreans and Chinese in international tournaments. One could argue that they don't take those games as seriously as they do the big domestic titles, which might make sense: the Kisei pays much better than the Fujitsu cup, after all. But it seems unlikely for top pros to take losing so lightly, especially with a certain amount of national pride at stake.

So does anyone know how the system works to take a guess? I'd like to know at least if #2 is true.

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Post #4 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:52 pm 
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I'll go with number 1. I mean, to be that good at Go, to want it that much; wouldn't the motivation be beyond the money by then? There's a lot of easier things to do in the world of business to make a lot more money.

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Post #5 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:31 am 
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Imagine you are Cho U.

What would you do?

Prepare for all the national titles with a very long thinking time, study all the games of your potential opponents etc. in order to win 416.000$ for the Meijin / 360.000$ for the Honinbo / ... etc.

Or put all your study efforts to the international titles with extremly shorter thinking time and other opponents to win 150.000$ (Fujitsu), 170.000$ (Samsung) etc.




You can compare being a Go-pro with being a Soccer-Pro. The soccer stars like Messi, Ronaldo etc. earn up to 20 Million $ in one year, but the Players in the second devision of the Bundesliga (soccer-league in germany) earn just enough to make a living while playing soccer. When they are to old to play (~ >36 years) they have no accrued reserves and end up unemployed most of the time.

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Post #6 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:03 am 
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emeraldemon wrote:
1) seems the most likely, although as we've seen in football there are plenty of players who go play in a big League in Europe but still come home to play for their national team in the World Cup.


Firstly, I'd guess on #1 personally, with #2 a reasonably close second.

Secondly, football players are definitely bound by the equivalent of #2, not #1. Your nationality dictates the only country you can play for internationally, and IIRC once you have played for a country you are not allowed to play for another even if you change (or get dual) nationality.

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Post #7 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:24 am 
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Although nobody has brought it up directly (yet), the comments above do bring to mind, unintentionally perhaps, that there are some extremely unworldly people on this forum who believe that the Orientals should open their tournaments to all and sundry, and that by not doing so they are being xenophobic, greedy or stupid.

To get a handle on this issue you need to look at how the organisations and tournaments have come about.

Japan and Korea have similar backgrounds, though the Japanese have a much longer track record. In both cases the organisations and tournaments came about entirely through the lobbying by players of friends and companies. The players also competed among themselves for the available sponsorship.

With the exception of the Ing Foundation, I can recall no cases of a government organisation or company outside China coming along and offering, off its own bat, to give a lot of money to go players. The real process is first described in detail (sums are mentioned) in, for example, Iwamoto's autobiography. A particular episode there in the 1920s is of special interest for two reasons. One is that the battle described there (by an insider), between the Honinbo School and the Hoensha, led eventually to the formation of the Nihon Ki-in. It was a guild of players who had all contributed in some way to garnering the sponsorship or patronage. Some were directly involved in fund-raising. Others were more marginally involved, for example as a pupil of a more eminent fund-raiser. A pupil's role would be to keep patrons sweet by playing them, but he would also support his master financially. The basic contract was that in return for tuition and board and lodgings, a pupil agreed to give his master every penny of his earnings until he reached 4-dan. Each senior player therefore usually had a school of sorts, not just to train his own pupils but as a place to meet patrons.

There are some variations on the theme. One is described in a biography of Yoshida Yoichi. In this case a lad of exceptional talent but who lives out in the sticks is supported by local businessmen or wealthy patrons, who essentially buy professional tuition for the boy. In Yoshida's case, his book was called Izumo, the old name for Shimane (i.e. the sticks), with an overtone of "making it" to the capital (Izumo means out of the clouds). A different but related book, Shiso, describes the efforts of the locals in this place to boost the Kansai Ki-in, essentially by supporting the best players. In all such cases, the poor player is building up a backlog of indebtedness to various people.

The Nihon Ki-in held sway before the war for the second reason the Honinbo-Hoensha tale is interesting. A large proportion of the backers were irritated by the factionalism between the players and knocked heads together. Enforced unity certainly helped the Nihon Ki-in prosper, but there was still factionalism - the breakway groups of Kiseisha, Hiseikai, Igo Shinsha etc. In 1949 came the biggest schism of all when the Kansai Ki-in was formed. Hashimoto Utaro's biography gives details of how local businesses in the Kansai were carefully canvassed, the persuasion being based on local pride (Osaka versus Tokyo). The upshot was that an organisation was set up where players had all the usual teacher-pupil and player-patron bonds but with a strong overlay of local loyalty.

The situation has changed since then, of course. The insei system or Kikuchi Yasuro's Ryugakuen (also described in book form) are clearly different, and many older players have died. But the changes are often on the surface only, and are not universal. The old teacher-pupil system still applies (if anything, it's making a comeback) and the old bonds may still apply in the other cases. One rather different change is the proliferation of open events in which pros and amateurs (including foreigners) can compete on equal terms, but it is too early to say how these will evolve.

The above applies mutatis mutandis to Korea.

Now in these cases, a very small number of players have (a) trained themselves up to a very high level, and (b) put themselves out and about big time over a very long period to woo sponsors - have put themselves in hock, even. They have created the pool entirely by themselves, and so are 100% entitled to choose who swims in it.

Despite that, all the organisations have been remarkably open. Both the Nihon Ki-in and Kansai Ki-in have welcomed players from China, Taiwan, Korea and the West. Korea's Hanguk Giwon has welcomed players from Taiwan and China. Taiwan has welcomed Korean players. The only constraint is that these players must embrace the way things are done in each organisation - they need to do whatever needs to be done to propagate the organisation. That seems perfectly reasonable.

At this point somebody will try to add, with a sage nod, "Ah, but what about Rui Naiwei?" That story has still not been properly told, but you need to factor in elements beyond government interference, such as stinking rows among eminent players in China (not Japan), and you need to forget the myth about Rui not being allowed to play in Japan. She played in the Eikyu Cup at the Kansai Ki-in, for example. In short, she is the exception that proves the rule. The rule of welcoming foreign players, on the right terms, still applies.

Given the way the organisations have grown up and the special obligations on their members, it is difficult to imagine how a pro from one organisation can transfer easily to another. Nevertheless, it can and does happen, for reasons such as marriage between members of different organisations. However, it is not ever likely to happen just because some pro wants to get rich, and even less likely just because some western wannabe pro fancies spending a gap year or five trying to win the Meijin.

There is still competition between organisations, and so they are on their guard anyway. Their own obligations come first. The view of the Nihon Ki-in is essentially that, unlike dogs for Christmas, it takes on a pro for life. That includes welfare benefits and pensions. The pool is therefore regulated. This is really no different from what is happening in western organisations at present. Generous final-salary pension schemes have come home to roost and so companies are closing the schemes to newcomers. This means that two people can sit beside each other doing the same job, one with a tasty pension, one with crumbs. Unfair, perhaps, but not anti-foreigner.

The Koreans have not been able to manage the for-life process as well as the Nihon Ki-in and Kansai Ki-in, mainly no doubt because they haven't been at it so long. So what we see is that the Koreans get glory and short-term cash whereas Japanese pros do have a career for life, even without winning in international events. They may even be said to have become too comfortable. On the other hand, the spectacle of some senior players grubbing for income, as in Korea and China, is one they are not yet familiar with. Of course, sponsors get twitchy about national pride, and pickings could become scarcer in future, but go is secure enough in Japan at the moment to act like a child's vision of a dinosaur - trying to cut off its tail elicits a response only five years later, by which time Japan might have a Yo Se-tol or Kong Jie of its own.

I have left China out of this, because modern go there is very much a creature of government. The Chinese Weiqi Assocation is due mainly to Deputy Premier Chen Yi, and go has been used plitically. For some years now, However, Chinese pros have technically been taken off government life support. Of course there are still bonds there. Not necessarily sinsister - for example, the government may issue "guidance" that not all pros should congregate in Beijing or Shanghai. Poorer or remoter provinces such as Heilongjiang and Gansu must have a fair crack of the whip, too. But at the same time it does not go unnoticed when international success beckons, and government funds can be released not to pros directly but, say, to communities who wish to teach children the game. And who better to employ for that than the local pros....

Largely because of its origins, the Chinese Weiqi Association is not intended to be specially outward looking. But even they have weclomed pros from Japan, Korea and Taiwan. Japanese and Koreans currently play in the China Weiqi League (in Division B as well as the high-profile Division A). Taiwanese players have been allowed into other events, as has at least one Japanese woman. The Australian Joanne Missingham has been allowed to qualify as a pro in China. Nor must we ignore the vast amount of international involvement by China in other ways - e.g. hosting the Korean Nongshim Cup, running pair go events for Japan, hosting events for the Asian Games organisation, hosting events for the world's amateurs. Even an example at a trivial level - Chinese pros keeping an eye on Rin Kaiho's kids while they studied Chinese in Beijing - shows that the basic approach is one of goodwill and openness.

The fact that I have gone to great length about this issue will lead you to infer - correctly - that I get irritated by those people who either assert or assume, with bad overtones, an exclusionist approach by the various Oriental go organisations. Especially when, as indicated above, there is extensive documentation as to how the systems work.

I hope this adds a dash of factual information that will be used before opinions are voiced.


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Post #8 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:36 am 
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Hey John,

I guess I'm not sure what post irritated you on this issue but I appreciate your response. I learned alot!

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Post #9 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:53 am 
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Thanks, that was fascinating! It sounds like you've had particularly irritating arguments about this in the past, as the responses in this thread all look reasonably tame. Even if it's completely understandable, it's still perhaps "a little sad" that we don't get Yi Se-tol et al playing long Japanese style matches against top Japanese players, say (or that life isn't fair and not everyone gets a pension).

Not to change the topic too much, but what's the current thinking on who would win if top Chinese/Korean players came over to Japan and played long matches (maybe say they get some time to adjust)? Are there examples of players who have come over to Japan from China or Korea after having been decent pros there that shed light on this (say based on relative rankings in the two places the player has been, perhaps in comparison with international results too)?

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Post #10 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:12 pm 
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emeraldemon wrote:
1) Maybe a sense of national pride or makes players want to play in their own countries, even if they could make more money abroad. Or maybe they just prefer to live where they grew up.
2) Either the Japanese government or the Nihon - Kiin prevent it.
3) Maybe Korean & Chinese pros would not do so well in Japanese tournaments.


I'd go with 2 and/or 3.
A Go Pro is a Pro, which means, like most other pros, they go where the Big Money is. It is clearly visible in most other professions, especially in sports, and I see no reason to assume that people playing Go are any different. I am sure certain amount of national pride is involved, but earning your living in another country does not need to diminish that at all, I think. Again, examples abound.

Even if we assume National Pride is a huge issue, there would certainly be outliers, Korean players who for this or that reason decide to go to Japan... if they could. There would certainly be a few who would play in the Japanese tournaments. And I don't mean foreigners scouted out as kids and brought to Japan at an early age to be trained, but seasoned mature foreign pros.

With China the situation might be different. Not always easy to make your own choices under communist system, and when you do you often burn your bridges, which is totally different proposition than the situation the Koreans have to face.

As for #3... I guess we will never know. Arguments are raised that Japanese do not fare well in international games, but people forget that these are different kinds of games entirely, mainly because of time controls. You can train to be great a blitz, or be great at slow(er) games, the skill sets are slightly different, especially at top levels. It makes sense for Japanese pros to put more value on preparation for the slow mode of play, since this where most of their money comes from. It makes sense for Korean and Chinese pros to emphasize preparation for fast(er) games, since this is what they get to play most of the time.

To me, I see dedicated and hard-working people on both sides of the equation, and I assume that many of them went as far as it is possible for a human brain to go. In other words - both sides are pushing as hard as they can, both have a lot of talent, and both put equivalent resources into their play. So unless we assume some genetic advantages of Korean and Chinese pros over their Japanese counterparts, I'd say they are both as good as humanly possible at their specific brand of the game. Its just... its a slightly different brand of the game they play, that's all.

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Post #11 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:00 am 
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Would I be right in assuming Iwamoto's autobiography is only available in Japanese? If so, what's the best source of that sort of history in English?

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Post #12 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:26 am 
Oza

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Quote:
Would I be right in assuming Iwamoto's autobiography is only available in Japanese? If so, what's the best source of that sort of history in English?


I'm sure there was an appreciation or similar in Go World when he died, but yes it's in Japanese, and at over 400 pages unlikely ever to see the light of day in English. However, you will get much more than a potted version when I finish the next book in the Go Seigen ten-game match series. Because the colour available for the commentaries of games with Iwamoto and Hashimoto is rather less than for the later matches (because of wartime conditions, paper rationing, etc), I plan to offer much longer player profiles than usual, and thereby also cover the state of go in China in the 1920s and 30s, which is of course also a way of looking at Go Seigen's own life from a different angle. That book is provisonally entitled The Survivors, alluding of course to Iwamoto and Hashimoto surviving the atom bomb but also to Go's own wartime experiences.

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Post #13 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:29 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Some figures from the Korean Treasury for average annual incomes in the arts and media indicate that the average annual income for go pros (all sources) is 28 million won, which is about US$20,000.


Teaching fees, tv comments all that is included? What about pros owning go, sorry baduk-schools or clubs? As the fee (dedicated to older, less game winning pros) Yi Se-tol did not want to pay was about 5 or 10% it sounds like at least half of the pros barely reach subsistence level.

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Post #14 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:05 pm 
Oza

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Would I be right in assuming Iwamoto's autobiography is only available in Japanese? If so, what's the best source of that sort of history in English?


I'm sure there was an appreciation or similar in Go World when he died, but yes it's in Japanese, and at over 400 pages unlikely ever to see the light of day in English. However, you will get much more than a potted version when I finish the next book in the Go Seigen ten-game match series. Because the colour available for the commentaries of games with Iwamoto and Hashimoto is rather less than for the later matches (because of wartime conditions, paper rationing, etc), I plan to offer much longer player profiles than usual, and thereby also cover the state of go in China in the 1920s and 30s, which is of course also a way of looking at Go Seigen's own life from a different angle. That book is provisonally entitled The Survivors, alluding of course to Iwamoto and Hashimoto surviving the atom bomb but also to Go's own wartime experiences.

oooh... I think I'll put in a pre-order now :)

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