I've been lurking for a while, but I just can't hold it in anymore.

I really, really don't get it, guys. Why do we have to be in denial, just to be politically correct? It's more than obvious to anyone at a glance that go in Japan is not as strong as go in Korea/China currently. It's just a fact. Coming up with pathetic excuses for Japanese go doesn't help anyone. It's like making excuses saying "Well, China/Korea weren't weaker than Japan in the 1950s, there just weren't any international titles back then".

What would you like to see more, Japanese pros actually becoming competitive with Chinese/Korean pros, making for exciting tournaments, or making more pathetic excuses, pat the Japanese pros on the back, and have international tournaments between China/Korea only for another few decades to come?

First of all, stop thinking in terms of 1p or 9p or whatever p. That kind of thinking no longer works. Just because they're 1p doesn't mean they're weak. Pro exams are super competitive these days, and new pros (whether they're Chinese, Korean or Japanese) are often stronger than many older pros, because the older pros are not under the kind of stress people studying to become a pro are, so they don't practise/study as much.

Last year, a new little girl who just became pro beat Rui Naiwei in the female A leagues. New Pros are very strong.

Putting aside how strong the top players in Japan are, Japan (and even Korea) just doesn't have anywhere near the thickness China has. And it makes sense, since China has 10-20x more people than Japan/Korea.... If we look at participants in the big title leagues and NHK cup, you see many players who aren't very strong at all (compared to top level pros). You have a bunch of 60 year olds, who obviously would not be at their peak anymore.

Do you really think that new Chinese (or Korean) pros won't have a chance against them? Come on. I wouldn't even be surprised if you said a new Chinese pro would be top 100 (possibly even 50) in China.

Not sure which post you disagree with...

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be immersed

I haven't seen anyone, on any thread, argue that the strength of Japanese go isn't currently lagging behind China and Korea. I've seen two issues that are debated:

• How does Iyama Yuta's strength compare to that of top Chinese and Korean pros? Some people think he is competitive with the top players from other countries; others think he's overrated because the general strength of Japan is weak. I don't think there is enough data to conclusively prove either side right, so this is a perfect topic for endless debate on the internet.
• What are the reasons that Japanese go currently lags behind their main rivals? It seems reasonable to look for the cultural factors that have led Korea and China to rise to a position of dominance. As a corollary, some have suggested that these cultural differences have brought benefit to the go community apart from increased playing strength. That's hard to prove, but given the legacy of Japanese go in the West it seems a reasonable hypothesis.

In general, I think most disagreements come because of differences in tone. Many people recognize the effort it takes to become a professional in any system and feel those who have achieved that title have earned some measure of respect. Others see no reason to offer respect to any but the top echelon of talent. That's probably a difference in values that extends far beyond one's approach to go.

I completely agree with that. Let's me rephrase the by78's statement like this: "Those young kids are probably strong enough to rival top 100 pros in China. On a good day, some of them might even beat a top 20, and I seriously doubt that the #1 Ke Jie can give them 1 stone handicap." We're talking about Chinese kids, right, so why don't compare them with Chinese pros instead?

There is no doubt that Japan is the weakest of the three countries. However, by78 likes to bring it up in many threads which have nothing to do with the topic which is a bit trollish.

Went through his profile and his posts, the comment that says that he hates on Japanese pros as a hobby is not a stretch. If this was Reddit he would have been downvoted to bits and few will even see his posts. I guess on forums like these it's up to the moderation team.

Because these kids are not strong enough to beat a top Chinese pro, and 1 stone handicap is not enough for them to prevail over Ke Jie.

Many of them are, however, quite possibly as strong as many top-50 Japanese pros, and can certainly give any top-20 Japanese pro a run for his money.

If you don't like that? That's your problem, really.

People are so bloody sensitive and partisan on this forum, but I don't give a rat's arse how you interpret my tone.

Japanese pros are WEAK compared to their Korean and Chinese counterparts. I can't help it if you don't like that fact, just as I can't help the fact that some people don't like the theory of evolution, or that Jesus ain't never ever coming back.

So yeah, take a deep breath and sod off.

Perhaps the level of Chinese Go and new 1ps in particular has increased in the last 5-10 years, but those ~20 year old Chinese 1ps who are now studying in the USA and playing in the US Masters don't seem anywhere close to top pro level (even accounting for them no longer being active pros). It will be interesting to see how Ito Kenryo 1p from Japan does against them: he plays Bao Yun 6d ama (but pro level) from China today who has already beaten Andy Liu and Eric Lui AGA 1ps and Hanchen Zhang Chinese 1p (Ito has had an easier draw so far, probably best win was against Michael Chen (KGS zchen, darkmage etc)).

I was mostly responding to the post that said that it was "insulting" to Japanese pros to say that new 1ps can possibly beat top 50 or even top 10 Japanese pros.


It isn't even insulting to say that new 1ps could possibly beat top 50 Chinese pros.

@Uberdude: Kenryo seems surprisingly strong. Not sure why I haven't seen him in any of the Japanese tournaments like NHK. Maybe I just haven't been paying enough attention. Also, seems like he can speak Chinese, which is interesting.

I'm predicting that he'll beat Bao Yun. I don't think he's played Andy Liu yet, right? I think Kenryo has the best chance of winning this year, or maybe he'll drop one to Andy Liu and there will be a 3-way 1 loss tie between Kenryo, Andy and Bao Yun. Would be interesting.

According to the USGC broadcasts (live now on KGS), Tim (Zirui) Song became pro in 2012, so not too long ago. With these stories of 1ps or amateurs (like An Jungki, Cho Insun etc) beating top pros there is of course a bias in that we only hear about the remarkable successes they have, there are hoards of Chinese 1ps none of us have ever heard of who have unremarkable careers. Even Ke Jie who rocketed to world #1 by the time he was 18 years old spent a fair few years (became pro in 2008) toiling away as an unremarkable low dan until his breakthrough to top pro level in 2014, which I recall him putting down to playing thousands of games against top pros on Tygem and reviewing with Park Junghwan as they were in the same team in the Chinese league.

Edit: so Tim Song lost to Eric Lui, so that Chinese 1p from 2012 isn't a super strong pro. Ito Kenryo and Bao Yun played an amazing game but Kenryo seemingly lost on time, but didn't, so they played on but he resigned.

Can we have statistics on all japanese vs chinese/korean players from one of the big databases in the last 15 years?

Goratings.org is based on historical data from a large database of games (here's a nice visualization, by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRvlyEpOQ-8).

However, it's true that Goratings.org will be influenced by the database that it uses - with a different set of games, you'll get a different ordering.

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be immersed

We might have some pretty good measure of the strength of the new crop in this case. One of the forum members on Chinese go website weiqi.tom.com has kept a ranking of international go players for many years and his database is much more extensive than the Go4Go database used by Remi. His forum handle is nmcgw and the "nmcgw ranking" is sometimes quoted on the home page of weiqi.tom.com. In his ranking thread he also tracks the success rate of predictions by his ranking and goratings.org's ranking and his usually comes out ahead.

After this year's pro qualification tournament he published a ranking of all 128 participants in the final stage here http://weiqi.sports.tom.com/2016-07-17/ ... 65363.html. The top ranked new pro Liu Yuhang has 2372 ranking points which will put him at 203rd position in the world. That will be slightly ahead of Jiro Akiyama(2370 points) in nmcgw ranking and about 24th in Japan according to goratings.org. If we assume this ranking is more or less accurate then Liu beating a top 10 Japanese pro might be considered a upset but not a particularly huge one.

For reference, goratings.org has Liu Yuhang at 376th in the world with 3080 rating points. That would be about 70th in Japan under goratings.org ranking. The nmcgw database has at least 109 games on Liu while Go4Go database has 23 games on record.

Ok, if we use that database, according to the other topic viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13425, Chen Hao, no 100 in China in June, also have a rating of 2372. So I think we can say that top 100 in China is about to equal to top 20 in Japan, I don't see where my statement is wrong. And I also think that it is very reasonable for a new Chinese pro to be at such level.

Ke Jie is about 370 points stronger than that, does it mean 1 or 2 stone handicap approximately?

LOL, I brought up the fact the Japanese pros are weaker, raw nerves were inexplicably touched. A bunch of zealous cheerleaders came out of the woodwork to rebuke me using ad hominem attacks, accusing me of being "trollish" and so on.

Then a few fellow forum members furnished ranking data and offered cogent arguments why my original statement was not unreasonable.

And now the cheerleaders, henceforth shall be known as Japan-ONLY-fans, or JOFs for short, are as quiet as crickets. The silence is deafening.

So let me stir the pot a bit and revise my original comment as follows:

"A lot of theses kids are DEFINITELY as strong as many top-50 Japanese pros, if not stronger. Quite a few of them ARE strong enough to take out a top-10 Japanese pro."

There, let me hear from you JOFs again how you don't like my 'tone', or how trollish I am. Bring it because I don't give a flying fock if I've touched a raw nerve. It's your problem: you are just too damn sensitive!

Did I get my message across? Let me again make it absolutely clear to you JOFs: Japanese pros are WEAK compared to their Korean and Chinese counterparts. I mean, they are, just, WEAK.

In case our JOFs still need further clarification, the word 'weak' is defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary as follows:
1. Having little physical power or ability, not strong.
2. Having little power or force.
3. Likely to break or stop working properly, not able to handle weight, pressure, or strain.

With the above definition in mind, please allow me to again repeat this for the benefit of JOFs: Japanese pros are WEAK compared to their Korean and Chinese counterparts. I mean, they are demonstrably WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, WEAK, compared to Korean and Chinese pros.

And finally, as I have advised before, my dear precious, fragile, sensitive JOFs, please take a deep breath and sod off!

by78, are you talking to me?

Yes, if you are a HOF.

wolfking, you looked at the top pro from the qualification tournament Liu Yuhang, what happens if you look at the bottom (number 20?) pro, how about the 50th placed-player? by78 said

When referring to a hall with hundreds of kids I interpreted "a lot" to mean more than just the best player or best few, but a lot of them, a sizeable minority, perhaps 50. Can by78 clarify how many he meant by a lot?

What is a HOF?

Ooops, I meant 'JOF'.