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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #21 Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:58 pm 
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For the W group on the right side, it seems that if B continues to play (instead of the approach on the left), he would be able to keep W group not alive, but perhaps Iyama judged that his outside influence is not strong enough no launch the attack. M9 is to me a move to break W's moyo, rather than to build such a large right side, because W will be able to invade anyway.

The upper left sabaki is indeed impressive. When watching the F18 move, I thought that the game was already hopeless for Iyama, as the best he can do is to live in a small corner. Later, I thought that Ichikiri made an "amateur-like" mistake by playing the hane at 129, instead of connecting his atari stone at G16. But at a closer look, I then realized that B can do E14 and F14 to increase his liberty, and thus connecting underneath. Perhaps it would be unbearable for W, so Ichikiri just played the hane to find a good place to resign.

I indeed made a simple L&D mistake in my tournament game yesterday, that's why at first I thought that 129 was a reading mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #22 Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:04 am 
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Game 4 of the Tengen vs Ichiriki today. Some interesting fighting: Iyama gave a centre ponnuki as Ichiriki played lossy ko threats and now he's trying to kill it ;-).

Edit: And succeeded so won by resign, thus defending his Tengen title 3-1.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #23 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:29 am 
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Iyama lost the first game of the Kisei title match against Kono Rin today.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #24 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:15 am 
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I feel like most Iyama Yuta's opponents are Kono Rin, Ichiriki Ryo, or Takao Shinji.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #25 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:30 am 
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Don't forget Yamashita Keigo. He and Takao were the main two challengers for the big 3 (Kisei, Meijin, Honinbo) the last few years.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #26 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:22 pm 
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yamashita not any more

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #27 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:50 pm 
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The 40th Kisei (which ended in early 2016) featured Yamashita challenging Iyama for the third straight year.

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Post #28 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:49 am 
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And that was the last time they played in one of the big tournaments. A couple years ago they used to play much more often.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #29 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:29 am 
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Quote:
I feel like most Iyama Yuta's opponents are Kono Rin, Ichiriki Ryo, or Takao Shinji.


Pretty good intuition. In the 2010s Iyama has played about 430 games of which 54 were against Yamashita, 48 against Takao and 32 against Kono. Only 8 were against Ichiriki but they were all recent as he's still a newcomer.

That's a full third of all his games. You'd think he'd welcome a change of scenery with a few more overseas trips :)

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #30 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:42 am 
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Ohashi Hirofumi 6p posted about the Kisei game and a bad-style bumping into head of 2 stones move that Kono played which Master/AlphaGo also played vs Gu Li: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/minamijyuujisei_1 ... fdb16bba01. Here's the game:


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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #31 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:39 am 
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A quick table on Iyama's most frequent opponents over his career. Don't forget all the games he played against Cho U on the way up. The following 26 players (out of ~158 total in my database) played him six or more times and account for 2/3 of all his games. Why 26? That takes us far enough down the list to see Chen Yaoye and Yi Se-tol, the most frequent non-J opponents.
Attachment:
Iyama Main Opponents.jpg
Iyama Main Opponents.jpg [ 128.71 KiB | Viewed 1024 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #32 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:48 am 
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@ez4u what does cummulative represent? Also, can put their head to head score? I know it's much work, but i think it would be cool and we could form a picture of his dominance.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #33 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:52 am 
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dsatkas wrote:
@ez4u what does cummulative represent?

8.9% of Iyama's games were played against the first person on the list, 17.9% of his games were played against the first two people on the list, 26.2% of his games were played against the first three people on the list, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #34 Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:23 am 
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Iyama beat Kono by 5.5 in an exciting game with lots of fighting and trades in Kisei title match game 2 today.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #35 Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:40 am 
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Oh, he won indeed! When I looked at the game (around move 150), I feel that he was in a bad position.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #36 Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:22 am 
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kimidori wrote:
Oh, he won indeed! When I looked at the game (around move 150), I feel that he was in a bad position.


With that group at the top side struggling I also thought it was hard for Iyama, but by move 150 when he ignored Kono's ko threat to pull out the cutting stones instead of resolving the ko I thought it reversed as the threat seemed a bit lame given all the aji on the surrounding wall Iyama had created plus the 2nd line backup connection (154). As white was super thick all over the board Kono lacked good ko threats so maybe Iyama wasn't nervous about his top group being ko; was it all read out when he played 110? 170 was a very nice tesuji too!

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #37 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:55 am 
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Iyama surely has better calculation than any fellow Japanese players, however, it seems that he used to have bad position in the beginning in his recent games. Is that because he tries a lot of experimental moves?

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #38 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:12 am 
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I sometimes get the feeling he is experimenting, for example the slow but thick turn on move 21 and then invasion of 23 vs Takao in the Meijin final game 7 (viewtopic.php?p=212631#p212631). I'd really like to know what his thoughts are on those moves: I think they are bad and he surely knows they are on the slow side. Does he think they are still ok moves, or does he also think they are objectively bad but will lead to later fighting on the left side and as he's better at fighting than his opponents he can win despite these slow opening moves? However, the deciding game of a big title match you've come back from 0-3 down in and need to win to keep your septuple crown doesn't seem the place to be experimenting like this!

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #39 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:30 am 
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Back when Kobayashi Koichi was at his peak he often played moves that he liked but were criticized as slow, similar to that turning move Iyama played.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #40 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:32 am 
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Quote:
I sometimes get the feeling he is experimenting, for example the slow but thick turn on move 21 and then invasion of 23 vs Takao in the Meijin final game 7 (viewtopic.php?p=212631#p212631). I'd really like to know what his thoughts are on those moves: I think they are bad and he surely knows they are on the slow side.


I don't know what Iyama thought about the moves as Takao won and so got to do the commentary, but Takao at least didn't think them bad at all. Indeed, Black 21 made White's three stones into bad moves, he said, it was just the sort of move he likes to play. But it's a stylistic choice. Black would often be thinking of playing an approach in the upper left and consolidating there with J16, but in this case White O13 is very good (perhaps more so because of the "new" peep at P4?), and Takao assumed Iyama wanted to pre-empt that.

Black 23 was a natural follow-up and Black's 40-point territory in the upper right (Takao's figure) put a lot of pressure on White, according to Takao. But he got the big point of White 28 on the left side, so he didn't feel dissatisfied. However, a possible alternative for Black 23 was 28, to take the initiative on the left side, and this would have been more usual, he said.

There is no reference to slowness as such, but Black 55 was perhaps too solid a way of playing (the sacrifice was to restrict White's range of responses). Takao suggested E2 instead, but then gives some mind-boggling variations. [Another case of thickness not really being thick?]

Black 79 might seem slow but Takao seemed to approve in the sense that he rubbished the alternative an amateur might play (79 at 80). But 80 was still good for White and by 112 he had the lead.

Since we are talking about slow/thick/solid moves, note White 108 "a thick move typical of Takao."

There don't seem to have been any glaring errors (both used most or all their 8 hours each), but White getting the centre despite Black's solidity in the lower left seems to have been the deciding factor.


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