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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #61 Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:34 am 
Dies in gote

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Today pretty impressive win from ke jie. The 3rd in a row. No need to worry about him .

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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #62 Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:01 am 
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It seems lately he likes to go in the 3-3 early.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #63 Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:24 am 
Oza

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He's at it again, getting earlier and earlier with each round of the Chinese league!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W [2017-05-05] 19th Chinese City League A, round 4 vs Lee Donghoon 8p
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B [2017-05-14] 19th Chinese City League A, round 5 vs Dang Yifei 9p
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W [2017-05-16] 19th Chinese City League A, round 6 vs Li Qincheng 9p
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


For round 7 will we see below?!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Ke Jie vs [insert victim]
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I feel like we could start a thread: Tygem troll or Ke Jie, can you spot the difference?


This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, gamesorry
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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #64 Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:38 am 
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Is there any implication to 4-4s in the opening? Are they decreasing in relative preference to e.g., 4-3?

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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #65 Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:13 am 
Oza

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uPWarrior wrote:
Is there any implication to 4-4s in the opening? Are they decreasing in relative preference to e.g., 4-3?

I've not noticed, but then "playing 4-4s only 55% of the time instead of 65% of the time" is far less noticeable when idling watching the latest pro games than these early 3-3s are. I don't know if Ke Jie thinks these early 3-3s are the best move, or maybe he's just experimenting (perhaps preparing for the AlphaGo match). He's so strong that he could be winning these games in spite of rather than because of them. But it's very interesting that he considers them playable enough to use in serious matches (though Chinese league is a non-knockout team event so less personal cash/pride on the line than an individual tournament, it will be interesting to see if he uses them in e.g. the ENN Cup final). If you told me 2 years ago that the top pro in the world would be invading at 3-3 on move 6 in a serious tournament game because of a bot I'd have been incredulous.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #66 Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:34 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
I've not noticed, but then "playing 4-4s only 55% of the time instead of 65% of the time" is far less noticeable when idling watching the latest pro games than these early 3-3s are.


Of course. Perhaps someone proficient with pattern searching software could give us figures for the number of 4-4s played in the past few months compared to pre-alphago. Maybe nothing changed.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #67 Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:46 am 
Gosei

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I realise it's pissing in the wind, but I say again: none of this is really new.

Here's Hayashi Yutaro playing an early 3-3 in the 1928 Oteai.



There are other examples. Here's an amusimng one (although by transposition) from 1967 between the two Fujisawas.



Zhou Lanyu played a rather stunning example against Guo Bailing around 1650.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #68 Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:03 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
I realise it's pissing in the wind, but I say again: none of this is really new.

Here's Hayashi Yutaro playing an early 3-3 in the 1928 Oteai.

There are other examples. Here's an amusimng one (although by transposition) from 1967 between the two Fujisawas.

Zhou Lanyu played a rather stunning example against Guo Bailing around 1650.


It's the same move, but I think it's a different (and new) kind of idea. In the first example, White is planning on playing the joseki out inc. the 2nd line hane and pressing the 3-4 stone on the side Black blocks in order to reduce the influence of the wall. This idea has been around for a long time, but AlphaGo's idea is that Black will eventually owe a move on that wall, i.e. it's thin, and this, IME, is genuinely new (of course, I haven't seen nearly as many games as you have!)

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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #69 Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:03 am 
Lives in gote

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John Fairbairn wrote:
I realise it's pissing in the wind, but I say again: none of this is really new.


It's not a new move. I played this when I was 18k.

But the meaning might have been different. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #70 Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 3:48 am 
Oza

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Viktor Lin (6d from Austria) wrote a nice article on the EGF site about these early 3-3s, with an example from Li Zhe before Ke Jie started doing it:

[2017-04-27] 19th Chinese City League A, round 2
Li Zhe 6p (Black) vs. Li Xuanhao 6p (White) B+R
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Post #71 Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 4:43 am 
Gosei

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Viktor Lin's article is wrong. The record for the earliest to play the 3-3 in an official game is not Ke-Li Qincheng (move 6 this May), but - in both senses - Han Chong-chin vs Kim Seung-ryong on move 5 in the Maxim Cup this January.

Han too was experimenting with the new outside strategy. But his example is much more remarkable because he did it TWICE in the same game (the second case was on move 13). But he lost by 2.5.

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