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The Reign of Ke Jie
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13861		 Page 4 of 18
Author:  lichigo [ Sun May 14, 2017 3:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Today pretty impressive win from ke jie. The 3rd in a row. No need to worry about him .
Author:  dsatkas [ Sun May 14, 2017 4:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
It seems lately he likes to go in the 3-3 early.
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue May 16, 2017 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
He's at it again, getting earlier and earlier with each round of the Chinese league!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W [2017-05-05] 19th Chinese City League A, round 4 vs Lee Donghoon 8p
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B [2017-05-14] 19th Chinese City League A, round 5 vs Dang Yifei 9p
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W [2017-05-16] 19th Chinese City League A, round 6 vs Li Qincheng 9p
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


For round 7 will we see below?!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Ke Jie vs [insert victim]
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I feel like we could start a thread: Tygem troll or Ke Jie, can you spot the difference?
Author:  uPWarrior [ Tue May 16, 2017 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Is there any implication to 4-4s in the opening? Are they decreasing in relative preference to e.g., 4-3?
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue May 16, 2017 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
uPWarrior wrote:
Is there any implication to 4-4s in the opening? Are they decreasing in relative preference to e.g., 4-3?

I've not noticed, but then "playing 4-4s only 55% of the time instead of 65% of the time" is far less noticeable when idling watching the latest pro games than these early 3-3s are. I don't know if Ke Jie thinks these early 3-3s are the best move, or maybe he's just experimenting (perhaps preparing for the AlphaGo match). He's so strong that he could be winning these games in spite of rather than because of them. But it's very interesting that he considers them playable enough to use in serious matches (though Chinese league is a non-knockout team event so less personal cash/pride on the line than an individual tournament, it will be interesting to see if he uses them in e.g. the ENN Cup final). If you told me 2 years ago that the top pro in the world would be invading at 3-3 on move 6 in a serious tournament game because of a bot I'd have been incredulous.
Author:  uPWarrior [ Tue May 16, 2017 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Uberdude wrote:
I've not noticed, but then "playing 4-4s only 55% of the time instead of 65% of the time" is far less noticeable when idling watching the latest pro games than these early 3-3s are.


Of course. Perhaps someone proficient with pattern searching software could give us figures for the number of 4-4s played in the past few months compared to pre-alphago. Maybe nothing changed.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Tue May 16, 2017 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
I realise it's pissing in the wind, but I say again: none of this is really new.

Here's Hayashi Yutaro playing an early 3-3 in the 1928 Oteai.



There are other examples. Here's an amusimng one (although by transposition) from 1967 between the two Fujisawas.



Zhou Lanyu played a rather stunning example against Guo Bailing around 1650.
Author:  Shaddy [ Tue May 16, 2017 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
John Fairbairn wrote:
I realise it's pissing in the wind, but I say again: none of this is really new.

Here's Hayashi Yutaro playing an early 3-3 in the 1928 Oteai.

There are other examples. Here's an amusimng one (although by transposition) from 1967 between the two Fujisawas.

Zhou Lanyu played a rather stunning example against Guo Bailing around 1650.


It's the same move, but I think it's a different (and new) kind of idea. In the first example, White is planning on playing the joseki out inc. the 2nd line hane and pressing the 3-4 stone on the side Black blocks in order to reduce the influence of the wall. This idea has been around for a long time, but AlphaGo's idea is that Black will eventually owe a move on that wall, i.e. it's thin, and this, IME, is genuinely new (of course, I haven't seen nearly as many games as you have!)
Author:  Uberdude [ Sun May 21, 2017 3:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Viktor Lin (6d from Austria) wrote a nice article on the EGF site about these early 3-3s, with an example from Li Zhe before Ke Jie started doing it:

[2017-04-27] 19th Chinese City League A, round 2
Li Zhe 6p (Black) vs. Li Xuanhao 6p (White) B+R
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sun May 21, 2017 4:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Viktor Lin's article is wrong. The record for the earliest to play the 3-3 in an official game is not Ke-Li Qincheng (move 6 this May), but - in both senses - Han Chong-chin vs Kim Seung-ryong on move 5 in the Maxim Cup this January.

Han too was experimenting with the new outside strategy. But his example is much more remarkable because he did it TWICE in the same game (the second case was on move 13). But he lost by 2.5.
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue May 23, 2017 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
What do we think of Ke Jie's early 33 invasion against AlphaGo? Full game at viewtopic.php?p=219631#p219631.

Looking over the game, I lean towards thinking White still got what he wanted, getting lots of compensation for letting Black settle near his wall, but I'm too weak to know.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 4 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue May 23, 2017 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
hyperpape wrote:
What do we think of Ke Jie's early 33 invasion against AlphaGo?

Not as bad for black as we used to think the early 3-3 was, but not great for him either, nor as good as for those other times he used it against humans and then wedged and the wall wondered about its eyes. I only skipped around the Myungwan Kim stream, but I think he said he didn't like it and Ke Jie should just have played normally.
Author:  Cassandra [ Tue May 23, 2017 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Uberdude wrote:
Not as bad for black as we used to think the early 3-3 was, but not great for him either, nor as good as for those other times he used it against humans and then wedged and the wall wondered about its eyes. I only skipped around the Myungwan Kim stream, but I think he said he didn't like it and Ke Jie should just have played normally.

It might not have been the best idea to simply copy one of another player's "typical" moves in a game against this player, not really knowing WHY (and WHEN) she chooses that move.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue May 23, 2017 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Uberdude wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
What do we think of Ke Jie's early 33 invasion against AlphaGo?

Not as bad for black as we used to think the early 3-3 was, but not great for him either, nor as good as for those other times he used it against humans and then wedged and the wall wondered about its eyes. I only skipped around the Myungwan Kim stream, but I think he said he didn't like it and Ke Jie should just have played normally.


I read Viktor Lin's writeup about new ideas related to the 3-3 point (which was very well written, I might add).

One of the innovations made by AlphaGo, as I understand from the article, was the fact that AlphaGo often omits the :b9: :w10: exchange, below, in the typical variation, which makes white stronger on the bottom:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black has two benefits outside of getting the territory:
1.) White's wall, while influence, can still be attacked later - white hasn't been strengthened on the bottom.
2.) Black gets sente.

In the game against Ke Jie, yesterday, though, AlphaGo threw in the knight's move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 4 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 2 9 . . |
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This kind of messes up the idea that I thought Viktor was explaining.
Option 1: Black gives up sente, which is not as good.
Option 2: Like in the game, black got sente, but ended up giving white a nice shape:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
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$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X C X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Compared to the earlier example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


White seems thicker and harder to attack.

Is the early 3-3 such a great move, given white's knight's move response? I guess AlphaGo played it, so maybe it thinks it's even?
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue May 23, 2017 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Perhaps AlphaGo has taught us that in response to an early 3-3 invasion, hane at the head of two stones is not as good as the keima. :)
Author:  Kirby [ Tue May 23, 2017 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Bill Spight wrote:
Perhaps AlphaGo has taught us that in response to an early 3-3 invasion, hane at the head of two stones is not as good as the keima. :)


Certainly seems possible. I caught a bit of Myungwan's commentary after the fact (didn't see that part live), and he chat a little bit about the hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


He pointed out that black was not alive when white descends:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


So since that's sente for white, white can get strong there anyway, I guess. So that's the reason for the hane, it seems.

That being said, I seem to recall alphago crawling again on the second line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Maybe the point is to make black alive without doing the hane.

I don't have a complete thought formed about this, yet, but it's certainly interesting.
Author:  xiayun [ Tue May 23, 2017 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
I think the 3-3 invasion didn't really go well with the first 3-3 move at the upper left. When AlphaGo played the early invasion, it normally has a 4-4 or 4-3 on the other corner. I understand Ke Jie's strategy was to take territory first, but two 3-3s were probably a little extreme.
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue May 23, 2017 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
xiayun wrote:
I think the 3-3 invasion didn't really go well with the first 3-3 move at the upper left. When AlphaGo played the early invasion, it normally has a 4-4 or 4-3 on the other corner. I understand Ke Jie's strategy was to take territory first, but two 3-3s were probably a little extreme.

Actually, I think it is the adjacent corners rather than opposite corner that have more bearing on the merits of the early 3-3 invasion of a bare 4-4 (one with no extensions). If we look at when Master played it, there are strong (or reasonably strong) stones (marked) in those areas, which act to somewhat mitigate the influence of the resulting white wall (not hugely significant, but did Master only 3-3 invade as black?). Michael Redmond pointed this out in his review of the Gu Zihao game below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Master #36 vs Gu Zihao
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X O O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O O X X . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . # . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


In this game the top left approach stone was played before the 3-3 and isn't exactly strong, but Master uses its sente after the 3-3 to then settle it with attach at a. The approach timing before the 3-3 can be seen as a probe: if played after the 3-3 white is likely to kick to attack more strongly.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Master #32 vs Kim Junh-hyun(?)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . a O . . . . . , X . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . # . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . # . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But Ke Jie's 3-3 invasion doesn't share these properties: he has a strong shimari in the upper right but it's rather far away and pointing the wrong direction (would be better at a), and the lower left there is no black presence but a white high big shimari which which works better with the resulting wall, and also makes a wedge have less space to invade.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go][go]$$B Ke Jie vs AlphaGo game 1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . a . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Surely Ke Jie will have studied these positions deeply, so I do find his 3-3 surprising. Maybe he just wanted to look cool and give a nice story, or wanted AlphaGo to teach him how to deal with an early 3-3 (based on this 1 game the answer could be one-point jump rather than hane), but 'wasting' such a big match to do so (rather than one of the Master games) is odd.
Author:  pookpooi [ Mon May 29, 2017 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Ke Jie win at first round of LG Cup had a little bit of background story

Apparently, he drank wine for 9 hours! Starting from 6 pm to 3 am, and plane to South Korea depart at 6 am, so only 2 hours of sleep!
He said he usually doesn't drink, but this time, he was accompanied by big brother 'Gu Li', some senior players (I guess Nie Weiping?), and surprisingly also by some of DeepMind's people. In his dream he won against AlphaGo, but in reality he wake up and beat Weon Seongjin.

source: http://hk.apple.nextmedia.com/realtime/ ... 9/56759228
Author:  Uberdude [ Wed May 31, 2017 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
And he won his 2nd round game too against Kang Dongyun 9d. He played his own 3-3 and then invaded Kang's 4-4 on move 6 and they played the same sequence as Ke vs AlphaGo game 1. Soon after he made the same cut in the wall and the fight spread across the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Ke Jie (white) vs Kang Dongyun, 22nd LG cup round 2
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 . . . 8 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 2 O 7 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 X 1 0 . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . 3 X O O O X 4 |
$$ | . . . , . 8 . . . , . . . 2 X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 0 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 9 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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