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Winner of World Go Championship 2017
Poll ended at Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:29 pm
Park Junghwan 38%  38%  [ 16 ]
Mi Yuting 24%  24%  [ 10 ]
Iyama Yuta 21%  21%  [ 9 ]
DeepZenGo 17%  17%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 42
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 Post subject: Re: Predict the winner of World Go Championship 2017
Post #21 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:41 am 
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Mi won instead. Look like Zen's judgement hasn't improved that much since the match with Cho Chikun.

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Post #22 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:54 am 
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The same thing happen when it match Cho Chikun last year.
Anyway, Iyama Yuta winrate drop to 30%, but does this mean he still has a chance? If Zen's evaluation can't be trusted.

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 Post subject: Re: Predict the winner of World Go Championship 2017
Post #23 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:03 am 
Dies with sente

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Indeed this time Zen can be trusted. Park won, and I also think that he started to gain the advantage after the complex fight on the left side/center.

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 Post subject: Re: Predict the winner of World Go Championship 2017
Post #24 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:05 am 
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Too bad I'm kinda root for Iyama Yuta...
Anyway, in this thread I bet on Mi Yuting, so my bet is still safe ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Predict the winner of World Go Championship 2017
Post #25 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:25 am 
Tengen

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I think things started going south for Iyama when he played that high move on the centre left (move 120, below), Park plonked a stone inside and Iyama ignored to bolster the connection of the wall above.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Iyama (White) vs Park. moves 120-121
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O X X X O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X X O O O . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X X X X X . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X O X . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . 1 . . O X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . X . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 8 X O O O X X X O . O X . X . |
$$ | . 4 1 X X O O X X O O O . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . 5 3 . 6 7 X O . . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X X X X X . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X O X . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . O O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . 0 . X . . O . . O X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . X . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Before that Michael Redmond thought the game was ok/nice for Iyama as he only needed about 30 points from that left side which looked very doable with sente, but then Iyama asked for a lot more and didn't try to kill black's invasion. So I have 2 questions about this sequence. First as Park (black) gave Iyama a few extra points for the right group to make sure his top right group was alive the threat of saving the cutting stone in the centre was a lot smaller, so why did Iyama play so high (one secondary aim of which was presumably threatening to save that stone, as well as helping a bit with the cuts in the wall above and surrounding the left) if it meant Park could easily invade. Secondly why tenuki the invasion and allow him to trash the side if you asked for more? No good answer? Would a more conservative move, such as one-point jump up from the 3-10 side stone (maybe too slow) or a large knight's move (2 spaces left of where he played, feels good to me) not be enough? Perhaps he feared being whittled down from all sides (black has some nice reduction from top left corner, cut the 3 stones in centre, corner slide in lower left) and wouldn't have enough? So he plays a big move asking for more, ignores the invasion to play the thick connection/yose at the the top left (forming an ugly empty triangle) and then defend the cut in the wall and aim to attack the invader on a large scale after it breaks the left side territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black (Park) trashes left (taking ko and threat x-y before 7 omitted)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O O O X X X O . O X . X . |
$$ | . X O X X O O X X O O O . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O . X O X O . . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X X X X X . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X O X . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O O . . . . x O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . 7 O 3 . . . . . , . X X X X X O O y |
$$ | . 5 X 1 X . . O . . O X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . 6 . 2 . . . . . X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | . . 4 . . 8 . . . . . X O O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . X . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

As part of that attack he pressed the lower side, threatening to take a chunky bottom-left corner with 146 (3 below) if Park is generous and takes care of his invasion group for 147 instead of the most severe move he played of extending into corner (4 below). In that case I can appreciate his high move turns into solid territory above, solid territory below, and weakish black group in middle to tease which is more concrete profit than one big but thin and not-quite-solid large territory getting poked at from all sides (such poking also giving black a bit of additional territory). But with 147 Park challenged Iyama, "go on show me how you build a miai of saving the 2nd line cut or killing the left invasion". I think against his Japanese peers Iyama tends to manage a good result in this kind of complex fighting, but against Park he kind-of failed: yes he got a ko but it was messy and the bottom right wasn't alive yet and black had ko threats, so he got indigestion trying to eat those stones (and his group there had bad shape so chances to die thus heavy ko) and lost the top group in exchange.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Park doesn't wimp out, fights severely with 4
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O O O X X X O . O X . X . |
$$ | . X O X X O O X X O O O . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O . X O X O . . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X X X X X . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X O X . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . X X X X X O O O |
$$ | . O X O X . . O . . O X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . X O O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . O , 3 O . . . X . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . . 4 X 1 X . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


What were the thoughts of Japanese/Chinese/Korean commentators about this critical stage of the game? I was pretty sure Park would win by move 143 (end of 3rd diagram).


Last edited by Uberdude on Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:56 am, edited 5 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Predict the winner of World Go Championship 2017
Post #26 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:54 am 
Tengen

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kimidori wrote:
Mi won instead. Look like Zen's judgement hasn't improved that much since the match with Cho Chikun.

I don't know about that, Mi is much stronger than Cho and it was a very close game. Those dumb moves at the end (some pointless silly sentes, but that atari inside middle left actually lost 1 point) could be because it thought it was winning and would still win despite them:

Hideki Kato on computer-go mailing list wrote:
The value network has been trained with Chinese rules and 7.5
pts komi. Using this for Japanese and 6.5, there will be some
error in close games. We knew this issue and thought such
chances would be so small that postponed correcting (not so
easy).

Almost seems like they should turn off the value network and just use monte carlo playouts in the small yose if not doing so means turning a game you are winning by half but think you are winning by 1.5 into a half point loss! (Not saying Zen was winning by half this game).

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 Post subject: Re: Predict the winner of World Go Championship 2017
Post #27 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:34 am 
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I always thought Zen was trained with Japanese game since the team might get Japanese game record database easily. And Zen always play in Japanese rule.

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Post #28 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:46 am 
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News report on this part using google translate

Representative Hideki Kato says, "China rules and Japanese rules are almost similar in the calculation of the ground, but in some cases there is room for a difference of 1 st. However, all Go artificial intelligence programs including DeepZenGo are Chinese rules It is made to calculate the formation with.

It is not easy to calculate with Japanese rules. You can force it to apply it, but it can sometimes get twisted if you change the setting. For your information, AlphaGo has tried to solve such a problem and I have heard rumors that it finally resolved. However, to the last it refers to unidentified information. "After all, homework remains in DeepZenGo.

Mi · Witin said, "I was dangerous in the midst of making a mistake, but at the end I can see a bit of some things DeepZenGo needs to improve."

http://nitro15.ldblog.jp/archives/49704509.html

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 Post subject: Re: Predict the winner of World Go Championship 2017
Post #29 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:06 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
kimidori wrote:
Mi won instead. Look like Zen's judgement hasn't improved that much since the match with Cho Chikun.

I don't know about that, Mi is much stronger than Cho and it was a very close game. Those dumb moves at the end (some pointless silly sentes, but that atari inside middle left actually lost 1 point) could be because it thought it was winning and would still win despite them:

Hideki Kato on computer-go mailing list wrote:
The value network has been trained with Chinese rules and 7.5
pts komi. Using this for Japanese and 6.5, there will be some
error in close games. We knew this issue and thought such
chances would be so small that postponed correcting (not so
easy).

Almost seems like they should turn off the value network and just use monte carlo playouts in the small yose if not doing so means turning a game you are winning by half but think you are winning by 1.5 into a half point loss! (Not saying Zen was winning by half this game).


Was there some special situation in the game that made Chinese vs Japanese rules give different results? I didn't see anything unusual, and I thought normally they would give the same result.

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 Post subject: Re: Predict the winner of World Go Championship 2017
Post #30 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:30 am 
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Yes,chinese rules make a difference more often one may think,for instance the 2015 myly cup finals last game,lee sedol lost by using chinese counting method,if japanese would have been used he would have by 0,5 but lost by 1.5 actually.Till the end lee sedol thought he was winning since he was counting with japanese rules in his mind.I somehow prefer japanese rules since they are more clear to me but its hard to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Predict the winner of World Go Championship 2017
Post #31 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:02 pm 
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More directly, here's Hideki from the computer-go mailing list:

"The value network has been trained with Chinese rules and 7.5
pts komi. Using this for Japanese and 6.5, there will be some
error in close games. We knew this issue and thought such
chances would be so small that postponed correcting (not so
easy)."

http://computer-go.org/pipermail/comput ... 09980.html

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Post #32 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Leela on 500k playouts (and I am still waiting) does not see the tesuji on F19. Maybe Zen also missed this and thought that it doesn't need to defend there?

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Post #33 Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:05 am 
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Zen throw away points until Park won. Chinese social media call Zen 'loser'

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Post #34 Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:45 am 
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My bet on Mi Yuting is still safe (though I'm kinda root for Iyama Yura)

Anyway, there's no need for fourth day as first and second place will be either Park Jungwhan and Mi Yuting while third and fourth place will be either Iyama Yuta or DeepZenGo.

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Post #35 Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:29 am 
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TVBaduk has Lee Sedol provide live commentary for the game, wish I could understand what he said
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2P-lGGNpjU

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Post #36 Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:18 am 
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pookpooi wrote:
Zen throw away points until Park won. Chinese social media call Zen 'loser'


Hmm... I'm curious which social media are you referring to?

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Post #37 Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:22 am 
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Zen's hardware
Attachment:
[522788]work-001-reafd.jpg
[522788]work-001-reafd.jpg [ 124.58 KiB | Viewed 878 times ]

The source https://www.cyberoro.com/news/news_view.oro?num=522788


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 Post subject: Re: Predict the winner of World Go Championship 2017
Post #38 Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:08 am 
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seigenblues wrote:
More directly, here's Hideki from the computer-go mailing list:

"The value network has been trained with Chinese rules and 7.5
pts komi. Using this for Japanese and 6.5, there will be some
error in close games. We knew this issue and thought such
chances would be so small that postponed correcting (not so
easy)."

http://computer-go.org/pipermail/comput ... 09980.html


For playing by territory scoring with a 6.5 komi, it might have been better to train by Chinese rules with a komi of 7. A tie result would be a Black win under Japanese rules with 6.5 komi about 50% of the time. Even better, I think, to train under Button Go with a komi of 7, where at its turn each player could take a button worth 0.5 point under Chinese rules. Then if Black took the last dame to score 7 points on the board, White could take the button to win, while if White took the last dame to score 7 points on the board, Black could take the button to win. :D

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Post #39 Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:17 am 
Tengen

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Park beat Mi to win the championship.

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Post #40 Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:46 am 
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Zen managed to give a decent performance, but it really exploded spectacularly in the endgame with Park Jeong Hwan.

Anyway, my pick came in last place.

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