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 Post subject: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #1 Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:50 pm 
Gosei
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On April 27, 2017 Cho beat Kataoka Satoshi in the second round of the 7th Masters Cup. That was Cho's 1500th official win as a professional (verus 821 losses, 3 jigo, and 4 no result, for a winning percentage of 64.6%). It took Cho 49 years and 0 months to become the first Japanese pro to reach that level of wins (currently Rin Kaiho is second with 1409 wins). Cho is 60 years and 10 months old.

The bottom of the referenced article has some interesting facts from Cho's career. Among them:
* He has beaten 307 different opponents
* The most victories were against Kato Masao, 71 wins (versus 42 losses and 1 no result)
* The most games were against Kobayashi Koichi, 129 games (66 wins versus 63 losses)
* He is 5-7 against Iyama Yuta
* He had 47 wins in 2001, the most of any single year
* He had 13 wins in 1968 when he became shodan, the fewest in any single year
* He has never had a losing year (!), although he went 29-29 in 2000 and 21-21 in 2009

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #2 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:10 am 
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Anyone has this number from Korean or Chinese professionals? (Like Lee Changho)

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #3 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:12 am 
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pookpooi wrote:
Anyone has this number from Korean or Chinese professionals? (Like Lee Changho)

Cho Hunhyun. SL says "1948 wins as of June 2016".

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #4 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:26 am 
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I'm a bit surprised that 1500 career wins is a record. Considering that Cho has been playing for 49 years, that only averages out to about 30 wins per year, which means that with a winning percentage of 64%, he played an average of about 50 games per year. Doesn't seem like that many games. Then again, even if a player exceeds that average, staying competitive for so long is something not many can match. Still, to win 1500 games in 10 years would only require 150 wins a year, and given current time settings, seems not so far fetched... What am I missing? How many games do Japanese and other pros play each year nowadays?

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #5 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:26 am 
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daal wrote:
Still, to win 1500 games in 10 years would only require 150 wins a year, and given current time settings, seems not so far fetched... What am I missing? How many games do Japanese and other pros play each year nowadays?


50 is about the max (for oficial games), no one is playing near 100, check Mr Kin's win/loss page: https://k2ss.info/igo/ranking/?country=jp. In 2016 Ichiriki had the most with 52 wins 20 losses. Iyama was 9th with 34-10. Up and coming young pro Shibano Toramaru was 35-15. IIRC Michael Redmond said (when he visited the UK a few years ago) that he typically only had a game or two a month, but hoped to have more if he was doing well (as most events are knockouts). 20th place (sorted by total wins not total games) was 29-13 for a total of 42. Antti's not updated his website in a while, but you can see he was having just a few games a month (and probably that pro-ama tournament doesn't count for these official game stats): http://gooften.net/kifu-newsletter/.

For comparison in Korea in 2016 Park Junghwan was top with 64-23 and Choi Jung (female) 2nd with 56-21, 20th was 29-16. And in China Ke Jie lead with 56-20 and Tuo Jiaxi 51-20, 20th was 31-21. So Korea and China have a bit more (and fatter top of the distribution), but not a huge amount.

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #6 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:47 am 
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Quote:
I'm a bit surprised that 1500 career wins is a record. Considering that Cho has been playing for 49 years, that only averages out to about 30 wins per year, which means that with a winning percentage of 64%, he played an average of about 50 games per year. Doesn't seem like that many games. Then again, even if a player exceeds that average, staying competitive for so long is something not many can match. Still, to win 1500 games in 10 years would only require 150 wins a year, and given current time settings, seems not so far fetched... What am I missing? How many games do Japanese and other pros play each year nowadays?


Turn it round and ask how many official tournaments there are and so how many games you can play.

Factor in to that that, if you are a title holder, you cannot play any games in that event the following year except 3 to 7 games in the title match, or if you are in a league and qualify for the following year, you cannot play in the preliminaries.

It also follows that, if you are capable of winning as much as 150 games a year, you would almost certainly be heavily involved in title matches and leagues. Inversely, lose in Round 1 of a preliminary and you just don't get the opportunity to play in the rest of that event's games.

Title matches also involve travel and PR stints, so each one can easily carve a week out of the schedule. Even ordinary players can be required to travel for ordinary games, e.g. between Tokyo and Osaka. Many ordinary players also have scorekeeping or refereeing responsibilities, which again can account for most of a week.

Including non-official but still public games, the most games a player will play in Japan is in the 80s, but that's rare, especially as Japan is still holding out with longer time limits.

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #7 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 5:12 am 
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daal wrote:
I'm a bit surprised that 1500 career wins is a record. Considering that Cho has been playing for 49 years, that only averages out to about 30 wins per year, which means that with a winning percentage of 64%, he played an average of about 50 games per year. Doesn't seem like that many games. Then again, even if a player exceeds that average, staying competitive for so long is something not many can match. Still, to win 1500 games in 10 years would only require 150 wins a year, and given current time settings, seems not so far fetched... What am I missing? How many games do Japanese and other pros play each year nowadays?


To win 30 times per year, at the rate of 64% winning ratio, would require playing almost one serious game per week. In Japan, title games are often spaced out with at least a week in between games. One of the reasons for this spacing is the need for recovery from the stress of playing so intensely. Players simply need time to recover. Imagine trying to run marathons at a pace of one or more per week. Players like Cho Chikun, Cho Hun Hyun, Lee Chang Ho, etc., have incredible stamina.


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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #8 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 5:46 am 
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gowan wrote:
Imagine trying to run marathons at a pace of one or more per week.


Eddie Izzard (English comedian without prior athletic experience) did 43 marathons in 51 days: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8256589.stm.

And then he did 27 in 27 days in the heat of South Africa (27 being the number of years Nelson Mandela was jailed): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35856814.

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #9 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:00 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
gowan wrote:
Imagine trying to run marathons at a pace of one or more per week.


Eddie Izzard (English comedian without prior athletic experience) did 43 marathons in 51 days: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8256589.stm.

And then he did 27 in 27 days in the heat of South Africa (27 being the number of years Nelson Mandela was jailed): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35856814.
It's impressive, but the description makes it clear that it's taking a serious toll on him. And of course, not to pick on a man who just ran dozens of marathons, but 5 hour times are not peak performance, which was kind of the original point.

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #10 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:28 am 
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Cho Chikun is inspiring. I admire his attitude, especially in regard to maintaining an admirable study regimen as he's gotten older.

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #11 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:23 am 
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Sakata once wrote about playing 1,000 (tournament) games in one's whole career. That was back in the '60s or '70s. I think that he ended up playing more games than that. The pace has certainly picked up since then. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #12 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:37 am 
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Sakata's career record was: Career record: 1117-654-16.

In percentage terms this is almost the same as Cho, but in fact I once did a check on lots of top players and as far as I can recall they all come out at around this level.

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #13 Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:27 am 
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Congrats to Cho, I hope he will keep playing for a while and reach another milestone !

pookpooi wrote:
Anyone has this number from Korean or Chinese professionals? (Like Lee Changho)


According to the korean baduk association website, there are three koreans who have won over 1500 games so far:

Cho Hunhyun, 1950 victories and 2787 games
Lee Changho, 1725 victories and 2360 games
Seo bongsoo, 1616 victories and 2567 games

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #14 Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 3:27 am 
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ez4u wrote:
On April 27, 2017 Cho beat Kataoka Satoshi in the second round of the 7th Masters Cup. That was Cho's 1500th official win as a professional (verus 821 losses, 3 jigo, and 4 no result, for a winning percentage of 64.6%).

Cho scored his 1400th official win on Sep 27, 2012 (1400-762-3-4).
Cho scored his 1300th official win on Jun 19, 2008 (1300-681-3-4).
Cho scored his 1200th official win on Jan 27, 2005 (1200-616-3-4).
Cho scored his 1100th official win on Apr 4, 2002.
I am not sure what the story is with Cho's 1000th win. Go World says Nov 5, 1998, and GoGoD agrees with 1998-11-04a.sgf. Other sources have Aug 12, 1999 (1000-482).

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #15 Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:16 am 
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vier wrote:
ez4u wrote:
On April 27, 2017 Cho beat Kataoka Satoshi in the second round of the 7th Masters Cup. That was Cho's 1500th official win as a professional (verus 821 losses, 3 jigo, and 4 no result, for a winning percentage of 64.6%).

Cho scored his 1400th official win on Sep 27, 2012 (1400-762-3-4).
Cho scored his 1300th official win on Jun 19, 2008 (1300-681-3-4).
Cho scored his 1200th official win on Jan 27, 2005 (1200-616-3-4).
Cho scored his 1100th official win on Apr 4, 2002.
I am not sure what the story is with Cho's 1000th win. Go World says Nov 5, 1998, and GoGoD agrees with 1998-11-04a.sgf. Other sources have Aug 12, 1999 (1000-482).


I know what jigo is, but what on earth is no result?

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #16 Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:43 am 
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Krama wrote:
I know what jigo is, but what on earth is no result?

Triple ko, quadruple ko, ...

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #17 Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:10 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #18 Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 7:04 am 
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Cho also had a game annulled because the referee incorrectly told him it was his turn to take a ko: http://senseis.xmp.net/?NoResult.

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 Post subject: Re: Cho Chikun Becomes First Japanese Pro to Reach 1500 Wins
Post #19 Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:16 am 
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So I couldn't resist checking goratings.org to see what it thinks of Cho Chikun.
It's interesting to me how the elo rating changes link up to titles.
Otake won the Gosei away from Cho Chikun in August 1980, But Cho fought back, taking the Meijin from Otake that winter.
It is during this Meijin match, specifically in [url=http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/10888]game 5, that Cho Chikun takes #1 in the world away from Otake Hideo according to goratings.
(He plays his first two moves on the 3-3 points this game, and wins with a game-ending two-step ko). Game 4 of that series was the "no result" due to the game recorder making a mistake.

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