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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #101 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
Here is the end position. Notice how white got several dozen points in the lower left and black got precisely zero from his shoulder hit group in that entire quadrant. Sometimes you use influence to make territory elsewhere on the board, but I don't think you can much say this for the left side or top here seeing how white comfortably lived in the middle, perhaps for the 2 dead stones and handful of points just right of centre. So I think Park's group ended up rather useless and inefficient.

But, it's probably that formation which makes the cut at 77 so efficient and thus enabling Park to get about even profit at left and top.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #102 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:57 am 
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for what it's worth, Peng Quan says the 4-4 move is very hard to deal with. It's a move that forces white to choose a direction, so then black can choose which star point to take (either top left or lower right).

Normally, if you take the other corner first then do the 4-4, white will definitely extend in the other direction, because.. it's better direction. But playing the 4-4 now removes that possibility for white. That's the purpose.

Peng Quan thinks that where black went wrong with that group is when black hane'd on top, after white played the knight's move i.e response to white's move 30; black should have hane on the bottom and sabaki. If black hane on the bottom, Peng Quan thinks the position is already good for black.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #103 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:50 am 
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The shoulder hit as a probe certainly gives a nice flow to the fuseki, and the threat to turn and develop the left side kind of induced white into that extension on left side. So the group could get its profit indirectly by making the opponent play more cautiously, but I still worry that once the dust settles it didn't make much profit.

Peng likes this and treat the two stones lightly? I think I saw Zen do this. A black territory on the lower side looks more likely now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 4 O X . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #104 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:03 pm 
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actually, no. he says that if you play atari on move 3, then it's pointless.

http://eidogo.com/#vc223f3E

Dunno how to use the diagram thing here.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #105 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Thanks, I did wonder about not playing atari but wanted to get both ataris after extend and cut, nice tewari argument about how one is enough with g3.

Btw I make diagrams with http://hiddema.nl/diagrammer/

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #106 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:12 pm 
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Second game is live now on wbaduk and other servers. I hope we get double Parked! I'm not feeling confident for Junghwan though: Xie nicely over concentrated the wall after an early 3-3 and wedge.

But Park JH won by resign after he killed a group following some fighting spirit in early endgame so we get a decider. Other match also goes to decider as Park YH lost.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #107 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:59 am 
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Third game is today not tomorrow. Park Junghwan beat Xie Ke so proceeds to the final.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #108 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:59 am 
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Park Younghoon defeated Li Xuanhao by 3.5 and advanced to final facing Park Junghwan.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #109 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:14 am 
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Wow, it's really two Parks! Two Korean pro fight for Chinese cup, interestingly contrast to Chinese and Japanese pro fighting for Korean cup (LG). When is the final again?

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #110 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:13 pm 
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The best-of-5 final will be played on 12/30, 12/31, 1/2, 1/4, and 1/5 (the last two if necessary).


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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #111 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:49 pm 
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I love Park Yeonghun, it's cool seeing him in the final. As of today he's #24 on goratings, 3458.
Park Junghwan is #1, with 3634. That gives him a 73% chance to win. Junghwan stands 14 wins and 8 losses against the other Park on go4go.
Here is their game in the Korean League in May:
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/64044
Black opened micro chinese.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #112 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:21 am 
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Exciting ko!
And now Yeonghun is going for what I think is the craziest semedori ever. But why was his 227 ko threat for a ko instead of solid connect and then just working no ko?

Eventually Yeonghun resigned.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #113 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:23 am 
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So 1 here is black's (Yeonghun's) ko threat for a ko, Junghwan resolved the centre ko (which they had been fighting for 100+ moves with various interludes such as black breaking into white's lower side and then white living on the 2nd line there), and then black threatened the lower group, white ignored to win top ko too and black killed the bottom.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Park Yeonghun 9p (black) vs Park Junghwan 9p
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . O X 6 . . . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X O 3 4 1 . . . X . X X O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . O X . . . . O X . X O X . O |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . , . O X X O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . X . O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O O O . X . O O |
$$ | . O X X O . X . 2 X X . . X . X X X X |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . O X O . O O . O O X |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O . O O O X O O . X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X O O X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X X X X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O O X X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . X O . O X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . X O X X X O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X O O O O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . 7 . . . 5 . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The alternative for 1 would be solid connect, if white resolves the ko then black can save the 2 stones without fighting a ko but the white corner can still live.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B variation
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . 8 7 5 9 X . . . . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | 0 . 6 X O 3 1 . . . . X . X X O X X X |
$$ | . O O X 4 O X . . . . O X . X O X . O |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . , . O X X O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . X . O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O O O . X . O O |
$$ | . O X X O a X . 2 X X . . X . X X X X |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . O X O . O O . O O X |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O . O O O X O O . X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X O O X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X X X X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O O X X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . X O . O X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . X O X X X O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X O O O O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


There's still the cut at a. Maybe white could connect there instead of living in the corner, or play something else. I think the reason for the game move making the ko could be if black wins the ko (spending 3 moves locally) it's better than the solid connection, threat follow-up and then adding a 3rd move to kill the corner because 1) you have more eyes 2) have more stones to the right.

So maybe black's plan was to lose that ko and get the large compensation at the lower side (but that requires white's cooperation) and then still make a mess inside with the initial move being one line right.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #114 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:52 am 
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Thanks uberdude. I tried to read the sgf for this game and the ko seemed crazy to me. Can you help me understand what this ko was fighting over and why it lasted so long?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . O X . . . . O X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . , . O X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . X . O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . X X . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X 1 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . O . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X . O . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


In the beginning when white takes the ko, what is at stake?

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #115 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Oh boy, that's a tough question! This is a very complicated ko, but first note black doesn't want to just connect the ko, but atari from the outside to make the ko bigger (as in the game). So what's the status of groups involved in the ko?
- Big circled white group is not alive, currently has 0 eyes, but is basically connected. Note that it looks like black has a tesuji at a which makes miai of 2 cuts at b/c but his own stones have bad shape / shortage of liberties so this doesn't quite work.
- Circled black group is not alive either, if white wins the ko then a white followup around d could cut it off, but also black g18/19 could be sente using d18 aji so white d isn't clean (maybe black could cut).
- Squared black group is safe (connected to corner by q15/s15 miai) but thin, note how black answered q16 at r18 rather than q18 to avoid giving white s16 in sente which would spoil that miai connection. Also this game is a great example of why white exchanging q15 for s15 as "oh, this is miai, sente exchange, let's save some endgame points in sente" would be really bad as it makes black stronger so e.g. the cut with a would work, and white got gazillions of ko threats in that area too. (white also got a lot of ko threats from the q18 weakness though and ended up separating the corner from the top side, a cost of black denying the s16 sente).
- Triangled black stones are cutting stones, but not safe yet. The j4 ko threat stone does have some relationship as a place for them to run to in future.
- White squared group is basically safe as the black 3 stones below are weaker (and white could always connect to lower left with one move if needed), but the h9 turn with the 3 stones above does have some effect on it. Also those 3 black stones below do help make ko threats like e9 on this white group have more power.
- White lower side stones aren't directly connected to the ko, but are a big area so a source of big ko threats for black: if he could gobble up a lot of territory there then losing the ko might be acceptable. Black developing a position on the outside here is also a place for the 3 triangled stones to run to safety.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . d X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . O B . . . . W X . X W X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O B . . , . W X X W W X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . B . . B . W X W W . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . W W W . # . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . B . . B B b . # . # . # . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X 1 B W . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . O . W . W c W W . . . |
$$ | . @ X @ @ Y Y Y . O . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . @ @ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #116 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:01 am 
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Junghwan won the second game by resign as well. Yeonghun is not doing his normal simple territorial style, but fighting really hard but Junghwan calmly dealt with it. Interesting that Yeonghun did the early coming into micro Chinese like define bot does and J played Shusaku's kosumi instead of kick.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #117 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:46 am 
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With the benefit of hindsight F17 was probably not the optimal move in this position. (A tiny bit too passive here, offering both G16 and D7 to black, working nicely for black in this case.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #118 Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:12 am 
Tengen

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Park Junghwan won the third game and thus the third MLily cup, his third international title.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #119 Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:22 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Park Junghwan won the third game and thus the third MLily cup, his third international title.


This has to be the most boring international final match for many years. Park Yeonghun did not even try to give a proper fight.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #120 Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:38 am 
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Well, he tried fighting the last 2 games and it didn't work, so maybe he tried going back to his more peaceful style. Or maybe he was dispirited from losing the last 2, didn't mind losing so much as a compatriot won this Chinese event anyway (still lose out on a lot of prize money), or maybe he just had a good (solar) new year party and was hungover :) . Not a good schedule really IMO.

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