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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #81 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:50 am 
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This YT channel posted the Chinese commentaries from both WeiqiTV and Tianyuan Weiqi: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo3EbZ ... a-H2Bdeh_g

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #82 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:06 pm 
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xiayun wrote:
This YT channel posted the Chinese commentaries from both WeiqiTV and Tianyuan Weiqi: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo3EbZ ... a-H2Bdeh_g


Thank you for sharing!

By the way, I am curious in general about the Chinese language YouTube channels content - who is usually sharing there, given that in China YouTube is not accessible, who is the audience, is it mainly for Chinese people living abroad?

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #83 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:09 pm 
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alphaville wrote:
xiayun wrote:
This YT channel posted the Chinese commentaries from both WeiqiTV and Tianyuan Weiqi: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo3EbZ ... a-H2Bdeh_g


Thank you for sharing!

By the way, I am curious in general about the Chinese language YouTube channels content - who is usually sharing there, given that in China YouTube is not accessible, who is the audience, is it mainly for Chinese people living abroad?


Yes, the online sources in China (e.g. iQiyi/Sohu/Youku/Tencent) block the newer content from being viewed from foreign countries, so there is a huge demand for people living abroad to see the latest TV shows and other popular broadcasts.

Such YT channels are always at risk of getting reported and shut down though since they don't have the copyright, a fate a few Chinese Go channels had suffered before.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #84 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:03 pm 
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uberdude: Regarding the an joyeong game I think there is an alphago self-play game they are copying that variation from.

Summary of weiqitv's commentary on wang haoyang vs deepzen:

against ai, you need to survive being overwhelmed in the opening by their powerful global judgement

19: Deepzen go shows a weird strategy, giving W the good point at 20
21: but now it makes sense. W jumping out is natural, but it seems like W prepared the good double hane combination. But defending the territory is fine too, a matter of style.
32: B's shape seems in trouble, W is playing very well
34: can W really block here? the feeling is to retreat first
39: lovely combination, is this what B was preparing. It seems difficult for W. next sequence is forced, but W doesn't feel comfortable. From this it seems that 21 should still be jumping out.
52: at least W can come back here, but why didn't B atari here first?
54: painful but probably no choice
58: painful to have to defend again, but truly no way to fight the ko after B7 A7 B6 B5 A6 B9 B8 D8 as B getting B5 and A5 in sente will almost kill the W corner group below. Note that W can't try to kill unconditionally with B9, as that walks into C7

59-70 interesting, but normal

71-84 what??? Deepzen loses a lot of points and ko threats with zero gain, 73 is misplaced and is better at L16, and B loses the possibilities of L16 and M17

It seems like W is now ahead. It is time to deal with the centre. W has over 50 points, and it seems unlikely B can pay for komi.

86 very questionable. hmm, isn't the centre bigger?, such as at P8 but perhaps W is saying this is enough. Later: this game had little fighting, it is as if both sides were confident in their position, with W having an AI like judgement of the game. Starting from 86, it is as if W decided he was ahead and played enough just to win by 0.5.

108-120 standard way for W to maximise local profit from the aji here.

130 it seems like W is clearly ahead

165, 167 computers don't play timesujis right? but these lose B ko threats and may lose B points

183 no choice, but B used up all it's ko threats ...

215 losing move. Deepzen's endgame ... this loses 1 point compared to S1. As it loses sente. After top is played, after S1, W must play A4, and B gets Q1 for B4 in sente, and then B wins by playing the only move L19 so that B still gets the last endgame. Most amateur players would miss this mistake.

__
Peng Quan's analysis of 215 seems correct to me, but if so, this is a serious issue with Zen's endgame.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #85 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:22 pm 
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I just checked the tianyuanweiqi commentary with fang tianfeng 8p, and he criticised the same problem with S1, but didn't realise it might not help unless B finds the L19 move. But then Peng Quan 7p is known for his endgame, and being an active player, he is naturally sharper at this.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #86 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:36 pm 
Judan

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dhu163 wrote:
uberdude: Regarding the an joyeong game I think there is an alphago self-play game they are copying that variation from.

Ah yes, game 20 is similar; black makes the hane block exchange on lower side to stop white's descent there, then we get white not making the corner hane so black descends in sente and white fixes with empty triangle: taking a liberty but allowing atari, and then black gets turn on right rather than more crawling and corner is left unplayed for a while but eventually becomes a seki.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #87 Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:06 am 
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dhu163 wrote:
58: painful to have to defend again, but truly no way to fight the ko after B7 A7 B6 B5 A6 B9 B8 D8 as B getting B5 and A5 in sente will almost kill the W corner group below. Note that W can't try to kill unconditionally with B9, as that walks into C7
Interesting: The developer of DZG, Hataki Kato, said that DZG "mistook a dead group on the left side of the board as an alive one" (source: https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... mlily_cup/ ). Regarding what you said, was this really a decisive mistake?

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #88 Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Reminder... starts tonight (pacific time).
I understand the AGA will cover these matches in their video stream

event_horizon wrote:
round of 16

Huang Xin 4p (CN) vs Lee Sedol 9p (KR)
Rong Yi 5p (CN) vs Liao Yuanhe 5p (CN)
Xie Ke 3p (CN) vs Tan Xiao 8p (CN)
He Yang 1p (CN) vs Chen Zijian 4p (CN)
Fan Yunruo 6p (CN) vs Wang Tao 6p (CN)
Wang Haoyang 6p (CN) vs Park Yeonghun 9p (KR)

Ke Jie 9p (CN) vs Park Junghwan 9p (KR)
Li Xuanhao 6p (CN) vs Ryan Li 1p (CA)

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #89 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:52 am 
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After losing, less than 5 minutes, Ke Jie log in to fox go server and observe his own broadcast room.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #90 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:13 am 
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dhu163 wrote:
215 losing move. Deepzen's endgame ... this loses 1 point compared to S1. As it loses sente. After top is played, after S1, W must play A4, and B gets Q1 for B4 in sente, and then B wins by playing the only move L19 so that B still gets the last endgame. Most amateur players would miss this mistake.


215: R-01 is a losing sente, losing 3/4 pt. from the original position. So it is the obvious suspect.

Also, Black 231, S-01 instead of A-03, sacrifices 1/6 pt. by allowing White A-04, in order to get B-05, which gains 2 pts. (White has sacrificed 3/4 + 1/6 = 11/12 pt. in these maneuvers! :shock:) By contrast, the alternative sequence given above lets White get B-05 and gain 2 pts. The swing is 4 pts. in the bottom left. However, the swing in the bottom right is also 4 pts., for a wash in the two regions. The difference is who plays first (and last) at temperature 1. In the game it was White, in the alternative sequence it is Black. There is your 1 pt. difference.

However, for Black to play S-01 at move 215 means that White 216 plays first in the top half of the board. And that certainly gains more than 1 pt. It would be quite unusual for a losing sente that sacrifices 3/4 pt. to be correct at this stage of the game. So, yes, Black 215 is probably the losing move. But it still could offer the best chances of winning as a sacrifice to let Black play first in the top right. If so, the losing play comes earlier in the game.

Quote:
Peng Quan's analysis of 215 seems correct to me, but if so, this is a serious issue with Zen's endgame.


I continue to maintain that top humans have an advantage against bots in the endgame, unless the bots can build a large enough game tree. By the mid-endgame the board has divided into independent regions (except for ko fights) and taking that into account, which is what humans do, is more efficient than whole board reading per se.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #91 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:11 am 
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Aja Huang post

Yesterday in his game against Ke Jie 9p, Park Junghwan 9p played White move 10. Indeed AlphaGo likes the move. AlphaGo would play Q16 even before R6 hane. I appreciate the way professional players are exploring new ideas. Go is exciting with their adventurous exploration.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #92 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:07 am 
Honinbo

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Bill Spight wrote:
dhu163 wrote:
215 losing move. Deepzen's endgame ... this loses 1 point compared to S1. As it loses sente. After top is played, after S1, W must play A4, and B gets Q1 for B4 in sente, and then B wins by playing the only move L19 so that B still gets the last endgame. Most amateur players would miss this mistake.


215: R-01 is a losing sente, losing 3/4 pt. from the original position. So it is the obvious suspect.

Also, Black 231, S-01 instead of A-03, sacrifices 1/6 pt. by allowing White A-04, in order to get B-05, which gains 2 pts. (White has sacrificed 3/4 + 1/6 = 11/12 pt. in these maneuvers! :shock:) By contrast, the alternative sequence given above lets White get B-05 and gain 2 pts. The swing is 4 pts. in the bottom left. However, the swing in the bottom right is also 4 pts., for a wash in the two regions. The difference is who plays first (and last) at temperature 1. In the game it was White, in the alternative sequence it is Black. There is your 1 pt. difference.


Sorry, folks, my mistake. :oops: Black can get the last play at temperature 1 in either sequence. And Zen actually did in the game (Black 245). All I had to do was look at the game record. That means that Black B-05 in the game is the effective last play, and it gains 2 points, not 1! Well done, Zen! :D

Gaining 2 pts. with the last play is unusual, and the actual game sequence is 1 pt. better for Black than the alternative sequence. Sacrificing 11/12 pt. to gain 1 pt. may not be enough to swing the game, but it is hardly an error. OC, we do not have a full endgame analysis from move 215, so Zen may have erred, but, based on what I have seen so far, probably not.

For my analysis of the play on the top half of the board at temperature 1, see https://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic ... 47#p222247 . :)

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #93 Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:24 pm 
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After crashing out of LG Cup, Korean players will have their best opportunity to win a title this year here, as both Parks should be favored against the two young Chinese players (even though Li Xuanhao actually has a higher GoRating than Yeonghun at the moment). The Best-of-3 semifinal matches will be played on 17th, 19th, and 21st:

Park Junghwan vs. Xie Ke
Park Yeonghun vs. Li Xuanhao

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #94 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:43 am 
Judan

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Round 1:
Park Junghwan vs. Xie Ke
Park Yeonghun vs. Li Xuanhao

Park Junghwan shoulder hit Xie's 3-3 on move 3 and I wonder if this was a mistake seeing how the game went: for several years now my understanding has been the shoulder hit should be seen as a special purpose joseki rather than a default one against 3-3, only applicable where building your or reducing opponent's moyo is important. This is particularly if you play all 4 moves of the typical joseki and end in gote, if you take sente (as Park did) and can treat it as an efficient probe against which way white pushes that's a redeeming point. In the game Park spend some extra moves to develop the shoulder hit group to the centre, but it wasn't exactly thick and in later fighting Xie resisted Park's attempt to make him connect on dame and just lived in the centre despite Park's influence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3 Park (B) vs Xie
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #95 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:56 am 
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Park Junghwan took an early lead, and Xie Ke kept playing questionable moves one after another, and by move 100, the game was basically over.

But then, Park screwed up big time, and gave Xie Ke a chance. Xie Ke took it, and ended up reversing the game for a slight lead, forcing Park to resign.

I really have to share this comment from sina... :D My translation doesn't do the original comment justice, but it will have to do...

"For many years, Park Junghwan has been quietly and tirelessly shedding sweat and tears, working towards the growth and providing opportunity for promising young Chinese players. From Ke Jie to Fan Tingyu to Tang Weixing... Park often destroys the walls of his own home (i.e eliminate other top Korean players) for the noble mission of supporting international Go, particularly for Chinese Go, he spares no effort in adding bricks to its foundation. Park is truly a great warrior fighting for internationalism!

Little Xie, if even after giving you so much help and support to help you climb up you still can't do it, the person you should be sorry to is not yourself or go fans, but Park Junghwan!"


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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #96 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:31 am 
Judan

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What was Park's big mistake? When I started watching (around move 120) it felt like Xie was cheekily taking cash whilst living everywhere as Park was trying to pick up some profit from hassling him but not getting much, though I didn't actually count if he had enough.

With the Ke vs Iyama match in the LG cup I compiled a little list of how far they got in recent international tournaments (see bottom), so I thought I'd do the same for Park.
- 8th Ing (2016): lost to Tang Weixing in final
- 21st Samsung (2016): lost to Fan Yunruo in quarter final
- 22nd Samsung (2017): lost to Gu Zihao in quarter final
- 21st LG (2016): lost to Zhou Ruiyang in semi final
- 22nd LG (2017, this one): lost to Jiang Weijie in round of 16
- 2nd MLily (2015/6): lost to Zhou Ruiyang in round of 16
- 3rd MLily (2017/18): 1-0 down to Xie Ke in semi final
- 3rd Bailing (2016): lost to Chen Yaoye in quarter final
- 11th Chunlan (2016/7): lost to Mi Yuting in round of 16
- 1st Xinao (2016/7): lost to Peng Quan in round of 64

Semi-finals: 3, finals: 1 (and potentially 1 more if wins next 2 games agaisnt Xie), wins: 0 (potentially 1). Notable that he only loses to Chinese players.

Quote:
Ke Jie in last 2 years of international tournaments:
- 8th Ing (2016): lost to Park Junghwan in quarter finals
- 21st Samsung (2016): won
- 22nd Samsung (2017): lost to An Sungjoon in round of 16
- 21st LG (2016): lost to Park Junghwan in round of 16
- 22nd LG (2017, this one): lost to Iyama Yuta in semi finals
- 2nd MLily (2015/6): won
- 3rd MLily (2017/18): lost to Park Junghwan in round of 16 (noticing a theme?!)
- 3rd Bailing (2016): lost to Chen Yaoye in final
- 11th Chunlan (2016/7): lost to Park Yeonghun in semi final
- 1st Xinao (2016/7): in final

So in semi-final of 6 of 10, final of 4, won 2 and 1 final still to play.

Iyama plays much fewer international tournaments, only 2 of that set of 10:
- 22nd Samsung: lost to Shin Jinseo in round of 16
- 22nd LG: in final

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #97 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:10 am 
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move 111 specifically, but the few moves before that as well, according to Peng Quan. It's inconsistent with his earlier play where he let white off relatively easy at the top; that was fine because black was leading by like 10+ points, but then suddenly he started being super aggressive, playing moves that losses points like 107.

And then in the attack on the center white group, black didn't gain anything at all, so all of the moves that lost points were just lost points for nothing, which reversed the game.

instead of 111, he should have extended the black stone in the middle, forced white to connect up in dame while solidfying his center group and taking the left side, according to Peng Quan.


And ya, that's why Chinese fans love him :D


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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #98 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:27 am 
Judan

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Thanks, 107 did puzzle me seeing as it didn't allow a centre kill. Also I wondered if 105 could extend first (I think need to not cut at 101 earlier to save liberty). It did seem sad that after 111 white even managed to rescue the 2 stones later whilst living plus make black need to spend a move on rescuing his shoulder hit group.

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #99 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:19 pm 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
Round 1:
Park Junghwan vs. Xie Ke
Park Yeonghun vs. Li Xuanhao

Park Junghwan shoulder hit Xie's 3-3 on move 3 and I wonder if this was a mistake seeing how the game went: for several years now my understanding has been the shoulder hit should be seen as a special purpose joseki rather than a default one against 3-3, only applicable where building your or reducing opponent's moyo is important.


Well, this is how Shusai played against Go Seigen, so there's that. ;)

Let's do a little tewari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3 Tewari
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:w4: is plainly bad, but then the exchange, :b5: - :w6: is better for White. The question, it seems to me, is whether :b3: and :b5: are heavy. Human play in the 20th century seems to indicate that they are, but it is easy to imagine Master leaving this corner as is and playing elsewhere. White has broken symmetry, so treating Black's play as a probe seems reasonable. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Final Stage of 3rd MLily Cup Begins on June 19th
Post #100 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:25 pm 
Judan

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Here is the end position. Notice how white got several dozen points in the lower left and black got precisely zero from his shoulder hit group in that entire quadrant. Sometimes you use influence to make territory elsewhere on the board, but I don't think you can much say this for the left side or top here seeing how white comfortably lived in the middle, perhaps for the 2 dead stones and handful of points just right of centre. So I think Park's group ended up rather useless and inefficient.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O X O X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . X X X X . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O . O , O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . O X O . O O O O X X . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X O O O O X X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . O X O O . O O O 1 |
$$ | . X . X X X O X O . O X X O O . . . . |
$$ | X X . X O X O . O O . O X . X O O O . |
$$ | X O O X O O O O . O O O X X . , X . . |
$$ | O . O O X X X X O O . X O X . X . X . |
$$ | . O . O O O O X O . O X O X . X O X . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X . O X X . X . O . O . |
$$ | . O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O O O X X . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O . O O X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . O O . O . O X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . O . . O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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