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 Post subject: Re: 19th Nongshim Cup
Post #41 Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:02 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
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That being said, with Korea fielding their #1, #2, and #3 players, I would say that they are clearly the heavy favorites.

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Of games in go4go Ke has 3-1 record plus Peng is lower rated so Ke is still heavy favourite

We seem to quite different interpretations here,

In case it wasn't clear, I meant Ke is heavy favourite in the Xinao cup final against Peng Liyao (and therefore end 2017 with 1 or 2 international titles (depending if you count young-only Limin) which doesn't look so bad compared to what he won in 2015/16), not to win the Nongshim cup all by himself.

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 Post subject: Re: 19th Nongshim Cup
Post #42 Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:56 am 
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Not that he cares, but Ke Jie also achieved his personal high in Goratings ranking this year and looked almost invincible at one point, when Gu Li jokingly said he was "half AlphaGo, half human". He just hasn't necessarily won the right games. To be fair, for the 5 international titles he has won, he could've easily lost to Qiu Jun and Lee Sedol, and as Ke Jie himself admitted, Tuo Jiaxi outplayed him for the better part of their best-of-3 title match, so luck always plays a factor.


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 Post subject: Re: 19th Nongshim Cup
Post #43 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:57 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
It seems from the latest server reports that some pros are losing on four stones to a bot. Looks like pros may have got more of their understanding of the game wrong than they thought.

Never trust numbers, I say :)

They already expand the upper limit. I can't remember if Shin Jinseo or who said that with 6 stones handicap he'd bet everything including his life as well. While I can't imagine how he'll lose with that condition in the near future, but the lesson from AlphaGo is just like you said. Never say never!


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 Post subject: Re: 19th Nongshim Cup
Post #44 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Well we mustn't forget that in human-against-human games psychology and emotions play a big role. AI doesn't have these issues. The chess grandmaster Emmanuel Lasker was famous for playing the opponent not the board. In go matches the same sort of tactics are used. One player is known to favor the san-ren-sei opening as black so opponents might play it against him. Against an AI such tactics have no effect. In a face to face go game a player feeling herself behind might play moves she knows would likely not be correct but which will complicate the game, hoping the opponent will make a mistake in responding. Do top level AI players complicate the game when they are behind? Of course not, they are never behind against humans :) In chess again the best computer programs are able to defeat top level humans giving material handicaps. If high-ranked go pros are losing go games receiving a four stone handicap, think how much pressure the pro would be under in a six-handicap game. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 19th Nongshim Cup
Post #45 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:38 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
It seems from the latest server reports that some pros are losing on four stones to a bot. Looks like pros may have got more of their understanding of the game wrong than they thought.


I don't think any pro lost to FineArt with 4 stones. Those are 9D online accounts, many can be 5-6D in Europe or so, not pros.

At the most recent US Go Congress, Andy Liu 1P from US said that he is losing against FineArt on Fox server on 2 stones consistently, but winning on 3 stones consistently.


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 Post subject: Re: 19th Nongshim Cup
Post #46 Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:37 am 
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sorin wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
It seems from the latest server reports that some pros are losing on four stones to a bot. Looks like pros may have got more of their understanding of the game wrong than they thought.


I don't think any pro lost to FineArt with 4 stones. Those are 9D online accounts, many can be 5-6D in Europe or so, not pros.

At the most recent US Go Congress, Andy Liu 1P from US said that he is losing against FineArt on Fox server on 2 stones consistently, but winning on 3 stones consistently.


Let's not forget Lee Sedol also beat Western pros including Andy Liu and Catalin Taranu down to 2 stones in the Go9dan promo match, which was abandoned before we got to see if he could win on 3 stones (I think he quite possibly could, given the nature of the wins on 2 stones and no losses). So top human pros can give a fair few stones to bottom human pros (and Andy isn't so near the bottom of human pros, given his performance in Japan, not sure if his strength has changed much in the past few years).

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