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 Post subject: These long 3-3 invasion joseki are getting out of hand
Post #1 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:30 pm 
Judan

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Mu Yuting (white) vs Tuo Jiaxi in the Chinese league today had a very long and complicated fight that sprawled across more than half the board that stemmed from a popular 3-3 invasion joseki. It starts off with this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 7 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 8 . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A few moves later Tuo doesn't answer 1 with safe defence at a but goes for an agressive line I've seen Elf recommend. too (probably the marked black stone helps?).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Mi spends an extra move on the top and lets his right side group get in trouble:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 1 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X 4 5 O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But he has this ko:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc (6 captures, 9 retakes)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 X X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . O 8 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Lots of local ko threats and a little ko threat factory later, is this white extend a ko threat? Tuo says no.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . O O X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O O X O X O X X X X |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O X X . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X X X O . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O X X 2 X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O O X O X X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . O X X X O . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . X O . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Indeed black wins the semeai (for now)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . O O X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O O X O X O X X X X |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O X X . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X X X O . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O X X X X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O O X O X X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . O X X X O . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X O . . X O . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . O . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X 2 |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But black plays on the left side allowing white to cut at o4 and makes a temporary seki and then white kills loads of black with fighting from that first joseki ending with resignation on move 220!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . O O X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . O O . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O O X O . O X X X X |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O O X X O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X X X O . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O O X X X X O X . X |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O O X O X X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . O O X X X O X X X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X O . . X O . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O X O O |
$$ | . . O . . . X X X O O X X X O O X X X |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O X . X X O X . . X |
$$ | . O . O X . . O O X X X X O X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . O X O O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The full game


This post by Uberdude was liked by 4 people: BlindGroup, ez4u, Gomoto, Pangolino
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 Post subject: Re: These long 3-3 invasion joseki are getting out of hand
Post #2 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:13 pm 
Oza
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So what did elf say about it all?

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
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 Post subject: Re: These long 3-3 invasion joseki are getting out of hand
Post #3 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:44 pm 
Judan

Posts: 5361
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 299
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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Elfv1 overview of the game on 5k playouts (not really enough for this complex fighting, at the end all the bouncing either means both players are making massive mistakes or Elf is confused and doesn't have enough playouts to understand the semeai, I think latter), black winning is top. So the fighting started off good for black. That first spike up was not liking white's ugly q12 push, prefers standard good shape moves at o12 cut or q11 attach, did Mi see a problem with those? But then black's o14 connect erased that, should have been o15 says Elf (and white's answer is sharp n14). The big swing from black to white was from move 97, Elf says s4 should be s6 which maybe makes sense in reducing the eyespace white could make in the game with the s7 attachment, but then playing out the ko more with s6 instead still sees white taking the lead. Part of the problem here is Elf assumes the L11 ladder works for black, so needs to waste a load of playouts with ever new move to realise that it doesn't actually capture white and thus the position isn't as good for black as it first assumes. Or does it actually want to play the failed ladder as near unlimited ko threats? :lol: :lol: Anyway, the 2nd big drop is when white plays m11 atari which means it's clear the ladder no longer exists, so I suspect this isn't a reflection of black m16 being a terrible move but that only now does Elf properly evaluate the position. When black played d15 and c11 I wondered if that was a diversion from the important fighting and Elf agrees, wanting to j4 or n4.

Attachment:
mi tuo elfv1 winrate.PNG
mi tuo elfv1 winrate.PNG [ 433.09 KiB | Viewed 869 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: These long 3-3 invasion joseki are getting out of hand
Post #4 Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:59 am 
Lives in sente

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ez4u wrote:
So what did elf say about it all?


https://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16148

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