It is currently Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:18 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #61 Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:09 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10370
Liked others: 3466
Was liked: 3300
John Fairbairn wrote:
I think the precedent you are searching for is not Nakano-Ishida 9which was in actual play, not the fill-in stage) is O Rissei-Ryu Shikun in 2002 (the "tinnitus" game). See my book "The Incident Room".


Was Ishida Yoshio the referee for that game? That's what comes to my feeble brain.

Serves the Nihon Kiin right for requiring dame to be filled to avoid seki but inserting the loophole to allow them to be filled informally.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #62 Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:49 am 
Oza

Posts: 2691
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 3835
Quote:
Was Ishida Yoshio the referee for that game? That's what comes to my feeble brain.


It was Ishida, but he took an hour to decide so I imagine he took advice from the sponsors before he announced his decision.

However, this case rumbles on. O Meien in his 2019 book "The world's go rules" (in Japanese, but with mistranslated English name on the cover: Go rules in the world), gives a few pages to it. He accepts some (administrative) rule is needed to cover such cases but doesn't think what he calls the "Nihon Ki-in one" of formalising the playing out of the dame is the best one.

Because it's about rules, I didn't take much in between yawns, but I think the basic theme of his book is that Japanese rules are the ones most preferred by humans (but Chinese OK for AI). He accepts there are hiccups in the Japanese rules but they don't matter much in the scheme of things for experienced players. For new players he seems to favour learning a combination of what he calls capture and pure go, after which the transfer to normal go is trivial. Makes sense to people like me who think Martian go and its ilk are just about finding the far end of a fart.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #63 Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:08 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10370
Liked others: 3466
Was liked: 3300
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Was Ishida Yoshio the referee for that game? That's what comes to my feeble brain.


It was Ishida, but he took an hour to decide so I imagine he took advice from the sponsors before he announced his decision.

However, this case rumbles on. O Meien in his 2019 book "The world's go rules" (in Japanese, but with mistranslated English name on the cover: Go rules in the world), gives a few pages to it. He accepts some (administrative) rule is needed to cover such cases but doesn't think what he calls the "Nihon Ki-in one" of formalising the playing out of the dame is the best one.


Well, that's tricky, because of the new definition of seki and the resulting beast, the anti-seki. There will be times, as Jaeup's example illustrates, when the best thing is to allow an independently living group to become seki to avoid creating one or more ko threats. That decision not to fill dame has to be made during play, and you can't allow your opponent to fill those dame informally. IMHO, the '49 rules were superior to the '89 rules. It may not matter very often, but they changed the nature of the game, hopefully without intending to do so.

When the '89 rules came out, I was not aware of the loophole and simply filled the dame during play. I found, to my surprise, that it hardly slowed down the game any, if at all. To count the game you fill the dame anyway. Any loss of time is a matter of seconds. I doubt if the pros would take any longer than us amateurs to play out the dame. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #64 Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:09 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 144
Location: NC, USA
Liked others: 138
Was liked: 28
Did Shibano play two games on Sept 23? According to gotoeveryone, he played:
[*] The 3rd Meijin title game vs Iyama Yuta on Sept 23 and 24 (win).
[*] In Rysei vs Koyama Kuya on Sept 23 (also a win)

He also seems to have played on Sept 19 (Kisei, win vs Mutsuura Yuta, the other B group winner) and Sept 20 (lost to Seto Taiki in NHK cup round 2). It seems very hard to keep up.

Is there any travelling involved?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #65 Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:45 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2302
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2186
Was liked: 1297
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
The NHK and Ryusei games are television games, played earlier and broadcast on those dates.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


This post by ez4u was liked by: silviu22
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #66 Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:00 am 
Oza

Posts: 2691
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 3835
What is going on? Or, rather, what is not going on?

Shibano pulls back to 2-1 in the Meijin, almost a week ago, and gets a mere passing reference? Hardly worthy of a performance in which he seemed to recover his form at last, after being knocked back in the Honinbo by Iyama.

But on top of that was the nature of the game itself. An ikken tobi shiamry, no less. An early pincer. Not a single 3-3 invasion until move 115, and even then it was an encroachment rather than an invasion. Not a shoulder hit in sight. Not an early contact play in sight. This was a real human game, for heaven's sake.

And the setting for the game with go's most ancient title reflected that. I think it was the first title match ever in Yamaguchi, but they were there because they were NOT celebrating some new-fangled wizardry. Instead the setting was the sexcentenary of local boy Sesshu Toyo - that's Battle of Agincourt timescale BTW. Sesshu was the most famous ink and wash painter of Japan. He's the sort of guy whose work you see in major western museums. The game was played in the majestic restaurant-cum-museum, the Saikotei, which was built in 1868. The whole game was a celebration not just of the past, but of human achievement.

And here, lately, on L19? Nothing but AI, rules and numbers. Humans are mentioned only in the connect of their Elo numbers. The majority of words devoted to networks, to chip sets and euros. Pah! Baubles and bawbees.

It is a truism in journalism that "there's nowt as interesting as other folk." So why are the interested here so few? I take some scant consolation in Shakespeare's superbly human phrase we all remember, when he describes the eve of Agincourt:

And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered —
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 4 people: ez4u, gennan, goTony, gowan
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #67 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:35 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 494
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 148
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
Quote:
And the setting for the game with go's most ancient title reflected that. I think it was the first title match ever in Yamaguchi, but they were there because they were NOT celebrating some new-fangled wizardry. Instead the setting was the sexcentenary of local boy Sesshu Toyo - that's Battle of Agincourt timescale BTW. Sesshu was the most famous ink and wash painter of Japan. He's the sort of guy whose work you see in major western museums. The game was played in the majestic restaurant-cum-museum, the Saikotei, which was built in 1868. The whole game was a celebration not just of the past, but of human achievement.


And how can you know this if you don't speak japanese ? Care to give us a source of wisdom available to us mere mortal without the understanding of the language of the go gods?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #68 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:02 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1463
Liked others: 430
Was liked: 414
Rank: 5d
GD Posts: 1000
There have been books in English, translated from Japanese or not, that are devoted to Go history and Go as a cultural activity. One of the problems is that people don't read what is available and books about Go don't sell well in general. On L19 there is little appreciation of books except when John Fairbairn posts something about a Japanese book he has recently found interesting. There are mentions on L19 of such things as mottoes, nicknames, and, occasionally, someone writes about visiting the Nihon Ki-in' historical collection on display, or the Shusaku museum. The motto "Hand talk" for Go gets little shrift any more, probably because people have forgotten that Go is a human activity. I like the style of the last Meijin game. It is as if the players snapped out of some sort of spell and returned to real life. I am not sure what importance to put on the venue for games. In a sense, hosting a match game is a kind of advertising, but some locations have historical connections. And recall that the venue for Shusai's retirement game played a big role in Kawabata's novel meijin (Master of Go).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #69 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:14 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 986
Liked others: 84
Was liked: 354
Here is the game record.



Attachments:
__go4go_20200923_Shibano-Toramaru_Iyama-Yuta.sgf [1.38 KiB]
Downloaded 17 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #70 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:58 am 
Oza

Posts: 2691
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 3835
Quote:
The motto "Hand talk" for Go gets little shrift any more, probably because people have forgotten that Go is a human activity. I like the style of the last Meijin game. It is as if the players snapped out of some sort of spell and returned to real life.


Excellently put!

The reference to hand talk and spells reminds me of the 9th century poem by Sugawara Michizane, "On Watching Wang Du Play Go"

一死一生爭道頻
手談壓卻口談人
殷勤不愧相嘲弄
漫說當家有積薪

Wang Du was a visiting professor, in Japan to give Confucian lectures to the Emperor. Michizane was Japan's foremost scholar. They obviously got on well and could chaff each other. The game, he says, is less about hand talk (手談) then a war of words with pouting lips. Yet, here is a descendant of Wang the Woodcutter (積薪)! Wang Jixin of course features in one of Chinese go's most famous fantasy stories.

We could even combine everything and do hand talk in Harry Potter spells. The spell "accio" seems appropriate: 飞来! (飞 being Chinese for a knight's move). Silencio 无声无息! has to be in the frame somewhere, of course, but if we need a bit of chaffing, how about the levitations spell 羽加迪姆 勒维奥萨!(wingardium leviosa): "you're getting a bit above yourself!" The full body paralysis curse 统统石化 is perhaps going too far, as turning uour opponent to stone may actually give him an advantage in go. I imagine that in practice most go talk would simply end with Expelliarmus 除你武器!(or if you win big maybe you can change chu ni wuqi to chu ni weiqi).

They didn't have go forums in those days. They wrote poems to each other instead. Dumbing down started a loooong time ago.

(You can tell I'm quasi-bored in quasi-lockdown :))


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 2 people: goTony, gowan
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shibano Toramaru
Post #71 Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:18 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 114
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 18
Rank: KGS 1d
Bad day for Shibano Toramaru. He lost 4th game of Meijin Final B+R 145 moves. Despite having white, he fall into bad position very early (all according to FA ofc). After some peaceful early moves, clash happend in upper right corner, and after few slips from each side, it was Iyama who got lead. Then Shibano tenuki was another slip, and after short fight, Iyama got 70% wr. Then it went worse for Shibano step by step and after move 74, Iyama had over 98% WR. From other point, it was solid game for Iyama - he had only few inaccuracies, and punished all questionable moves by Shibano. From that point Shibano to keep his most precious Mijin title, needs to win 3 in a row - not impossible, but if we assume both players are equally strong and colour of stones does not matter, then his chances are as low as 12,5%. As i said, not impossible!

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group