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 Post subject: Re: Elfv1 highlights of Kim Jiseok vs Lee Younggu
Post #21 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:23 am 
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(bot evaluation itself is not necessarily better than pros, even Alphago was top amateur only without search)


Be carefull, it's "Alphago without reading" vs "top amateur with reading"

The "problem" is that humans will automatically read (and ponder on their opponent time), so it's impossible to really have "humans without reading" as a comparaison.


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 Post subject: Re: Elfv1 highlights of Kim Jiseok vs Lee Younggu
Post #22 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:24 am 
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Tryss wrote:
Quote:
(bot evaluation itself is not necessarily better than pros, even Alphago was top amateur only without search)
Be carefull, it's "Alphago without reading" vs "top amateur with reading"
The "problem" is that humans will automatically read (and ponder on their opponent time), so it's impossible to really have "humans without reading" as a comparaison.
NNs will also do some kind of reading (without search), and I think raw AG net strength is similar enough to "top pro without reading" to say that the gap is larger on the global search side at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Elfv1 highlights of Kim Jiseok vs Lee Younggu
Post #23 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:58 am 
Honinbo

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Tryss wrote:
Quote:
(bot evaluation itself is not necessarily better than pros, even Alphago was top amateur only without search)


Be carefull, it's "Alphago without reading" vs "top amateur with reading"


Indeed.

Quote:
The "problem" is that humans will automatically read (and ponder on their opponent time), so it's impossible to really have "humans without reading" as a comparaison.


Not in that comparison. However, as I recall, De Groot managed long ago to study human first impressions at chess. In his research pros usually not only saw the best move, they saw a main line of play. That is not what neural networks can do, but such seeing is not the same as the conscious process called reading, either. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Elfv1 highlights of Kim Jiseok vs Lee Younggu
Post #24 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:17 am 
Tengen

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I've failed to keep up with which engine is doing what, but I thought it was pretty settled that both Leela Zero and Elf could reliably beat professionals. Is that not the case?

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 Post subject: Re: Elfv1 highlights of Kim Jiseok vs Lee Younggu
Post #25 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:21 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
I've failed to keep up with which engine is doing what, but I thought it was pretty settled that both Leela Zero and Elf could reliably beat professionals. Is that not the case?
Yes (on good hw). The question here was if most of bot advantage comes from it's global evaluation (NN strength) or it's global search.
Hence the comparison hack: top raw net without search ~= top pro without reading ~= top ama with reading.

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 Post subject: Re: Elfv1 highlights of Kim Jiseok vs Lee Younggu
Post #26 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:30 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Not in that comparison. However, as I recall, De Groot managed long ago to study human first impressions at chess. In his research pros usually not only saw the best move, they saw a main line of play. That is not what neural networks can do, but such seeing is not the same as the conscious process called reading, either. :)


You're right, I didn't elaborate, but I just wanted to add a caveat to the original comparaison (it is still an usefull comparaison if you're aware of its shortcomings).

And personally, I have "automatic subconscious reading", by that I mean that, the more I look at the board, the more I see/feel sequences, even if I don't do any conscious reading.


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 Post subject: Re: Elfv1 highlights of Kim Jiseok vs Lee Younggu
Post #27 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:23 pm 
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@moha Thanks. That's what I thought, but Uberdude was cautious enough to make me doubt it:

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Of course it's possible the pros had some good response that Elf didn't see (particularly involving ladders), but when it comes to judgement of positions, particularly quiet ones or even fighting without low liberties I tend to think Elf is better than the pros.

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 Post subject: Re: Elfv1 highlights of Kim Jiseok vs Lee Younggu
Post #28 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:02 pm 
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I have no doubt that with good hardware both LZ and LZ-Elf will spank even top pros. On WBaduk I've seen them playing some Japanese pros (mostly young so not quite top except Shibano) and won every game, often before move 100. Even on my PC I expect it's stronger overall, but on certain positions Elf can struggle and have blindspots, mess up ladders and life and deaths as we see. So if Elf says a pro is making a mistake probably 9+ times out of 10 it's right but occasionally Elf is stupid too.

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