Joanne Missingham

nagano · **#41**

CSamurai wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

CSamurai wrote:

Yes. Because it sure is easy to pronounce chinese characters you've never seen, and the proper accents in an accent based language that you've never encountered, and sounds that your language lacks.

We should all just learn to pronounce all writen languages, just like you, to avoid being lazy.

I think this attack is totally uncalled for.

Perhaps my smiley at the end didn't make it clear, but I was being rediculous. You know, overstating something, for humourous purposes.

However, failing at that, I'll endeavor to come up with a more constructive way to state this.

I find it odd when people automatically assume westerners are lazy because they don't learn to pronounce things in other languages, jargon from other languages, etc. I understand, yes, we Americans in general do put too little effort into understanding the linguistics of cultures we're interacting with. On the other hand, assuming that the reason Chinese residents of english speaking countries have alternate westernized names is because people are too lazy to learn to pronounce their language/name/whathave you, smacks of an unfair assumption.

It was to this unfair, 'westerners are bad people' assumption to which I aimed my comment.

I don't know. Maybe our fair nagano is a master of several languages, and truly feels that all us mere mortals who become tongue tied when looking at old english pronunciations, let alone languages which have letters which have no english equivilant sound, or, are constructed of vowel sounds that are often merely accents of the same vowel sound, should stop being lazy.

Of course, I appologize if I offended anyone.

I was partly joking, and I don't expect people to pronounce every language perfectly. I was just saying that I think people could put forth more effort than they often do, and I think its a pity that people from East Asia in particular almost have to do this. For instance, I think many would consider it to be quite ridiculous if a German named Andreas Müller was required to change his name to Andrew Miller if he were in an English-speaking country. In fact many German-Americans did so during WWI because of the strong anti-German sentiment at the time. I am not saying that the different treatment of East Asian names is race related, and I do understand that they are much harder for the native English speaker to pronounce. But I do think that most names can at least be approximately pronounced in English. BTW, I am no "master" of several languages, though I do have a fundamental understanding of German and am studying Korean and Chinese.

Mike Novack · **#42**

This problem with names is not a Western vs Eastern thing.

Exists within Western civ even when the cultures are using the same alphabet (and not all within Western do that). If you are of a minority ethnic group in the area where living a name traditional in your culture might be a tough one for your kids to have to go by. And spelling even if using the same alphabet can be tricky as our different languages don't spell things out the same way plus some names have traditional pronunciations far removed from how spelled if spelled traditionally rather than phontically.

Wouldn't at least some of us Westerners on this list have trouble with names like:
Nagy (Nadge)
Siobhan (Shevan)
St John (Sinjin)
Or grossly mistake the ethnic association of Odd Bull (and so a kid in Minnesota would have a problem given this Norwegian name because the other kids would think "American Indian").

nagano · **#43**

Mike Novack wrote:

This problem with names is not a Western vs Eastern thing.

Exists within Western civ even when the cultures are using the same alphabet (and not all within Western do that). If you are of a minority ethnic group in the area where living a name traditional in your culture might be a tough one for your kids to have to go by. And spelling even if using the same alphabet can be tricky as our different languages don't spell things out the same way plus some names have traditional pronunciations far removed from how spelled if spelled traditionally rather than phontically.

Wouldn't at least some of us Westerners on this list have trouble with names like:
Nagy (Nadge)
Siobhan (Shevan)
St John (Sinjin)
Or grossly mistake the ethnic association of Odd Bull (and so a kid in Minnesota would have a problem given this Norwegian name because the other kids would think "American Indian").

I never said that it was a Western vs. Eastern thing. I understand that it has to do with the vast difference in pronunciation. I also do not expect everyone to correctly pronounce every word they read from another language. But if someone tells you what their name is, you should be able to reasonably approximate the pronunciation, at least well enough that it is apparent who you are talking to. I will say though, in the United States there are many people with Jewish, Arabic, and Indian names that do not feel obligated to change their names. What is so different about East Asian names?

Kirby · **#44**

I have some experience with this topic, because my wife sometimes uses alternate names when introducing herself.

I think that the reason is simply to provide convenience to the person she is introducing herself to. She writes her name in English starting with "Hyu". There aren't a lot of English words that start with Hyu that I'm aware of, so sometimes it is easy for people to mispronounce her name. When we first met, in fact, she introduced herself with her made-up English name. I insisted on using her real name, and made an effort to learn how to pronounce her name well.

I don't think she ever thought that Westerners, for example, were too "lazy" to learn to pronounce her name (as seems to be suggested by some people). Rather, I think she just assumed that most Westerners did not know much about Korea or how to pronounce Korean names. As such, providing an alternate name makes it easier for the Westerner - and they don't mispronounce her name.

I think of this in a similar way to when, even if I'm in Asia, people will typically try to speak to me in English. It's because they assume that I will have a hard time speaking in their language, simply because of past experiences with Western folks living in Asia. I don't think that this, in itself, holds any feeling that I'm lazy. Some people may have that thought, but I think it's separate from the courtesy of trying to make someone feel more comfortable (which is what is happening when somebody provides an alternate name for you to use).

---

Side note: Another thought that just came to me is that, in America, if my wife uses her Korean name for a job that requires English speaking ability, it is a default assumption that her English ability is poor, and her application will typically be thrown out. She has had much more success in using an English name when applying to jobs that require English ability. That's because people typically assume that someone with a non-English sounding name must not be good at English speaking stuff.

Solomon · **#45**

Kirby wrote:

I think that the reason is simply to provide convenience to the person she is introducing herself to. She writes her name in English starting with "Hyu". There aren't a lot of English words that start with Hyu that I'm aware of, so sometimes it is easy for people to mispronounce her name. When we first met, in fact, she introduced herself with her made-up English name. I insisted on using her real name, and made an effort to learn how to pronounce her name well.

I don't think she ever thought that Westerners, for example, were too "lazy" to learn to pronounce her name (as seems to be suggested by some people). Rather, I think she just assumed that most Westerners did not know much about Korea or how to pronounce Korean names. As such, providing an alternate name makes it easier for the Westerner - and they don't mispronounce her name.

...

This is also why I chose my name to be "Solomon" and a lot of people know me by that name. It's also just a bit comforting in knowing that googling my real name brings up 1 result, while the full name most people know me by brings up 4000+ results.

nagano · **#46**

Kirby wrote:

I have some experience with this topic, because my wife sometimes uses alternate names when introducing herself.

I think that the reason is simply to provide convenience to the person she is introducing herself to. She writes her name in English starting with "Hyu". There aren't a lot of English words that start with Hyu that I'm aware of, so sometimes it is easy for people to mispronounce her name. When we first met, in fact, she introduced herself with her made-up English name. I insisted on using her real name, and made an effort to learn how to pronounce her name well.

I don't think she ever thought that Westerners, for example, were too "lazy" to learn to pronounce her name (as seems to be suggested by some people). Rather, I think she just assumed that most Westerners did not know much about Korea or how to pronounce Korean names. As such, providing an alternate name makes it easier for the Westerner - and they don't mispronounce her name.

I think of this in a similar way to when, even if I'm in Asia, people will typically try to speak to me in English. It's because they assume that I will have a hard time speaking in their language, simply because of past experiences with Western folks living in Asia. I don't think that this, in itself, holds any feeling that I'm lazy. Some people may have that thought, but I think it's separate from the courtesy of trying to make someone feel more comfortable (which is what is happening when somebody provides an alternate name for you to use).

---

Side note: Another thought that just came to me is that, in America, if my wife uses her Korean name for a job that requires English speaking ability, it is a default assumption that her English ability is poor, and her application will typically be thrown out. She has had much more success in using an English name when applying to jobs that require English ability. That's because people typically assume that someone with a non-English sounding name must not be good at English speaking stuff.

I don't have anything against people using alternate names for convenience if it is their choice. What I do have a problem with is when a society almost forces someone to use an alternate name to avoid discrimination when they may really prefer to use their real name. Rejecting a job application on the basis of someone's name is absolutely ridiculous.

Kirby · **#47**

nagano wrote:

...
I don't have anything against people using alternate names for convenience if it is their choice. What I do have a problem with is when a society almost forces someone to use an alternate name to avoid discrimination when they may really prefer to use their real name. Rejecting a job application on the basis of someone's name is absolutely ridiculous.

I agree that rejecting a job application for those kinds of reasons is kind of silly... There are some types of prejudices happen, though, when a foreign name is heard.

I think that this is hard to avoid when somebody has little contact with people from a certain nationality. It also has to do with the way that people learn, I think... And maybe also a lack of experience in dealing with people from that nationality.

Let's say you go to come to visit a foreign country called "Molangoswara", and you meet 15 natives when you get there. Let's say that every one of them, upon seeing you, greets you by shaking their foot.

You might come to think something like, "People from Molangoswara shake their feet to greet you". This might be a reasonable conclusion, because out of all of the people that you met from Molangoswara, they've all done this type of greeting.

But it could be the case that you're entirely off. Maybe all of those people are from the same family, and they just happen to have that habit. Maybe the rest of the Molangoswara population does nothing like that at all.

Or it could be that, just that one time, they happened to shake their feet for another reason. These are all possibilities, but with the data you've been given, you can only guess that this might be some sort of a cultural thing. It might be a natural conclusion, because people learn and make assumptions or classifications based on the data they are given.

---

I think the same thing holds true for this kind of discrimination. It's possible that an employer doesn't really know a lot of people from Korea. Maybe they've hired two Korean applicants in the past, and both had poor English ability.

Of course, it's an ignorant assumption to assume that all Korean people will therefore have bad English ability. But if all of a person's input data points to that idea, it is a natural assumption they might make.

I certainly don't think it's a good thing, but I think it's due to lack of experience with other cultures. I guess the key is to get to know as many people as you can. When you know more people from a different culture, you can start to truly understand it.

And it's a continuous learning process.

Mike Novack · **#48**

nagano wrote:

But if someone tells you what their name is, you should be able to reasonably approximate the pronunciation, at least well enough that it is apparent who you are talking to. I will say though, in the United States there are many people with Jewish, Arabic, and Indian names that do not feel obligated to change their names. What is so different about East Asian names?

Well .... whether you can come close depends on whether your language conatins similar sounds. It's amusing training somebody speaking English how to make the "tz" sound (it occurs at the end of words in English so not that hard) or the "shch" consonent of the Slavic languages (hard for them to manage that).

And some names have to change because ......... well my mother was 13 when she came to the US and learned English. The other kids laughed when she insisted on using the long "autobus" rather than the usual "bus" and wouldn't use the word "fussy" (if any of you know Magyar, you'll understand why a proper young Hungarian girl wouldn't be comfortable saying those words). In other words, our names in our language might be obsenities in the language of the place to which we have moved.

Magicwand · **#49**

my korean name is Jin Won Kim
when i introduce myself on non official situation i call my self "Jean"
when it is official i will use my real name.
it is not that i am not proud of my heritage but it is convenient for others to remember my name and more comfortable calling me.

if you write chinese pronuncation in english many times it is akward to my ear.
that is why many chinese people choose to have english name.(all the chinese movie star that i know have english name)

kokomi · **#50**

Do you not know Ziyi Zhang? ;-)

It would be funny if someday Gu Li presents himself as Peter Gu; or Lee changho as Jack Lee. :lol:

Andrea · **#51**

DrStraw wrote:

Then where does her Chinese name come from?

Joanne Missingham's Chinese name is 黑嘉嘉（Hēi Jiājiā). I gather from articles I've read that 黑 is her mother's family name, so in English-language terms she has simply adopted her mother's maiden name as her Chinese surname. Her personal name 嘉嘉 was presumably chosen by her family.

For obvious reasons, I was delighted to see Ms. Missingham do so well. Sadly, Australian media didn't pick it up, but since they ignored the entire Australian team's performance at the WMSG, I'm not surprised. The Sensei's Library page on the tournament has some interesting comments on how she ended up representing Oceania rather than Taiwan. Generally speaking there is very little English-language coverage of her career at all, and it's best to search for news by her Chinese name.

Andrea · **#52**

There is a TV interview featuring Joanne Missingham and Zhou Junxun posted on YouTube. Part 1. Part 2.

hyperpape · **#53**

She is 10-4 this year, which puts her in the Taiwanese top 20 of wins and losses, and she's now 4-0 in her league of the Qisheng. That means she'll play in the 16 member Qisheng tournament.

tapir · **#54**

Just promoted to 2 dan.

I guess western media will not pick up the story even if she wins a major tournament unless they get it served ready to publish by Go players eager to use the opportunity.

hiyayang · **#55**

A little story that you might find amusing:

Miss Missingham's Chinese surname (from her mother's maiden name), Hei, means "black" in Chinese. It is a relatively rare family name in China. There have been reports that the ancestors of the Hei family resided in a village called Hei Bai Wa, which literally means "Black White Swamp". It turns out that there were only two family names in that village, Hei ("Black") or Bai ("White").

palapiku · **#56**

2d pro but 8d kgs
(assuming jiajia is her)

kokomi · **#57**

lee sedol's online account, according to an interview with him, is 1d.
So it doesn't mean anything.

tapir · **#58**

palapiku wrote:

2d pro but 8d kgs
(assuming jiajia is her)

Guess she should focus on her Asian Games matches more...

i.e. it can't be her. She is currently playing in the Asian Games together with Zhou Junxun (first place in the preliminary, unluckily only 4th later). It is very unlikely that she discovered KGS in the middle of official matches, playing from a hotel room in China and not even using a pseudonym. Also take a look at the user info of the account jiajia.

Btw. there was also earlier a player called jia117 who stopped playing in March 2010.

nagano · **#59**

I don't mean to anger all the KGS lovers out there, but why would someone fluent in Chinese even bother with it? :scratch:

palapiku · **#60**

To advertise their go schools for Westerners... At least, this describes the majority of Chinese 9ds on KGS.

Joanne Missingham

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