It is currently Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:13 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #41 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:42 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2490
Liked others: 1263
Was liked: 1106
John Fairbairn wrote:
Incidentally, this interview revealed that Cho does bouldering as a hobby and as a way to keep fit for go. I hadn't come across this term before, despite doing a fair bit of rock-climbing in my youth. But since it apparently involves climbing without ropes or harnesses, I wonder if that tells us anything about whether Cho is a risk-taker.
If anything, then the opposite. Bouldering is indoor climbing, and you don't need any equipment because the you never fall more than a few meters, and always onto a nice thick and soft mat.

_________________
The key is to keep Bonzo under control -Tami

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #42 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:57 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 340
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 79
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
You can do bouldering outside too, but it's indeed always close to the floor :

Image
(the person behind is here to redirect you to the mat when you fall)

It's often more technical than "traditionnal" rock climbing. And far much shorter.

I'd say that, in go term, bouldering is akin to solving a tsumego :mrgreen:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #43 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:17 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 216
Liked others: 153
Was liked: 117
sorin wrote:
ez4u wrote:
He refused to give his guess (he was grinning when he refused, clearly realizing that I was trying to pin him down. ;-) )

Thanks for trying! :-)


I asked this question on Cho Hye-Yeon 9p forum on Facebook, and she replied unequivocally: 1 point is worth more then 100 minutes of thinking time for her, and she would make this trade-off at the beginning of the game, if given the chance:


Attachments:
thinking_time_vs_points.png
thinking_time_vs_points.png [ 41.22 KiB | Viewed 846 times ]

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com

This post by sorin was liked by 2 people: dfan, Elom
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #44 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:29 am 
Judan

Posts: 7937
Liked others: 2217
Was liked: 2784
sorin wrote:
sorin wrote:
ez4u wrote:
He refused to give his guess (he was grinning when he refused, clearly realizing that I was trying to pin him down. ;-) )

Thanks for trying! :-)


I asked this question on Cho Hye-Yeon 9p forum on Facebook, and she replied unequivocally: 1 point is worth more then 100 minutes of thinking time for her, and she would make this trade-off at the beginning of the game, if given the chance:


So she would pay at least 100 min. time for 1 pt. Would she pay 1 pt. for 100 min.? My feeling is that the more time you have, the less per minute it is worth.

_________________
"Even in the Orient, children are often Occidental."

----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #45 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:49 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 216
Liked others: 153
Was liked: 117
Bill Spight wrote:
So she would pay at least 100 min. time for 1 pt. Would she pay 1 pt. for 100 min.? My feeling is that the more time you have, the less per minute it is worth.


I read her "1 point means everything to me" as "will not give away 1 point, no matter how much is the increase in thinking time".

(Of course, this is about a possible trade at the beginning of the game.)

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #46 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:13 am 
Oza

Posts: 2259
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 3230
Quote:
I read her "1 point means everything to me" as "will not give away 1 point, no matter how much is the increase in thinking time".


Even if you read it correctly, it may not be right in the first place - self-delusions can creep in.

I say this on the basis of a long career in journalism where most news journalists, already under deadline pressure, invariably chose to leave writing the story until the very last minutes. We felt that this way we worked better. Quite possibly we did - one rational explanation is that the longer you delay, the more of a moving story you can incorporate. The intense focus you need also enables you to omit extraneous details, which is almost always good for a news story. You type faster. Above all, you feel r e a l l y good at the end of it. I have no recollection of anyone ever missing a deadline. You had to have your rush.

On occasions we'd be called on to write a feature or opinion piece, with much more time and no special deadline. That was purgatory. We'd be listless, and that would manifest itself by pecking away at the typewriter instead of pounding it. And many missed deadlines would occur.

I read years later that what is going is that, with a looming deadline, your reaction to it causes a pleasurable spike in noradrenaline in the brain, to which you can become mildly addicted. We all know of thrill seekers. The big difference in front-line journalism is that we have behind us an army of editors and sub-editors who catch our mistakes.

But mistakes do occur. One I still cringe at (but only mildly) is when, writing at very high speed a breaking story at a trade conference in Uruguay, I realised I couldn't remember the first name of the Uruguayan trade minister. I shouted out to the newsroom, "What's Iglesias's first name?" and got the instant reply "Julio" and that's what went into my story - instead of Enrique. I still finished on the usual high, which incidentally doesn't feel like a sugar rush - it's more like an icy calm at the time, and the pleasure comes afterwards. By which time your mistakes are in the safely forgotten past. The reason I remember that incident particularly is not because I made a mistake - I'm sure I made many and never bothered noticing. It was because on that one occasion the night sub-editor didn't catch my mistake and I was serenaded on my return. (For the teeny-boppers, Julio Iglesias was a big singing star of the time.)

I now know that chess blitz players experience a similar noradrenaline high, so it seems likely that go players do, too. They of course do not have anyone in reserve to catch their mistakes, but I would speculate that that makes their rush even more intense and thus even more pleasurable, closer to what the extreme-sports dare-devils must feel.

When you get used to that feeling, as blitz players must because of the sheer number of games they play (and you can play more in any given time), I can easily imagine, from my own experience, how wearisome extra time can feel.

I am therefore positing that go players who prefer to rush than dawdle may not be truly aware of either their mistakes or the size of them. And I further posit that they do make such mistakes.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 5 people: ez4u, gowan, lightvector, mhlepore, sorin
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #47 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:35 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 181
Liked others: 36
Was liked: 54
KGS: lepore
Thanks Sorin for pinging Cho Hye-yeon - the more data points the better.

It is hard to design any kind of experimental test with pros, in an actual setting that matters anyway. I wonder if the bots can help:
- Have a strong AI play itself thousands of times, with Bot 1 getting time = X, and Bot 2 getting time = 2X. (or if clock time is the wrong way to think about this, you can halve the playouts allowed for Bot 1, or whatever the proper lingo is)
- I assume Bot 2 will win more since it can "think" more. We can then manipulate the komi to favor the less thinking bot until each is winning 50% of the time.

This would give an mapping of time to points. I realize it isn't directly translatable to humans, but we'd at least know something about the potential magnitude that we didn't know before.

Who wants to call DeepMind?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #48 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:53 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1295
Liked others: 595
Was liked: 392
Rank: AGA 4k KGS 2k
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
The annoying problem with most of these kinds of experiments is that all of the Zero-style bots assume a particular komi value and are not capable of understanding other ones, so you can't make a good points-vs-time comparison.

Even if that were not the case, I think that the graph of strength as a function of thinking time could look very different for humans and bots.

Over on the Leela Zero issues page, people have done experiments to see how much thinking time affects strength for various generations of the network; unfortunately, I wasn't able to find them at the moment after a few minutes of looking. Time is definitely very important to them! On the other hand, they are trained expecting to have time to search, they're not capable (yet) of allocating their main time between moves intelligently, etc.


This post by dfan was liked by: mhlepore
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #49 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:53 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 216
Liked others: 153
Was liked: 117
sorin wrote:
I asked this question on Cho Hye-Yeon 9p forum on Facebook, and she replied unequivocally: 1 point is worth more then 100 minutes of thinking time for her, and she would make this trade-off at the beginning of the game, if given the chance:


Adding a link to the question/answer: https://www.facebook.com/groups/7181373 ... 981380012/

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com


This post by sorin was liked by: mhlepore
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #50 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:01 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4200
Location: North Carolina
Liked others: 432
Was liked: 685
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 3k
Kirby: who were the Korean players in the two games you chose? Were they of similar strength to Takao and Iyama, or stronger/weaker?

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #51 Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:15 am 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 249
Liked others: 24
Was liked: 72
@hyperpape: the games chosen by Kirby are the following.





so one of the Korean players is stronger than the two Japanese. The other Korean player only has 1 game on goratings so it's hard to know his strength.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #52 Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:33 am 
Oza

Posts: 2259
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 3230
I was transcribing a game last night which was out of the ordinary in one respect: it had an awful lot of time sujis.

So here were players willing to give up ko threats and other aji just to have more time to think - on multiple occasions.

To my eye the game itself was not complex tactically. It was strategically complex in that White chose to sacrifice a huge group of about 30 stones, but it was not a simple trade. He clearly had to evaluate several other local positions in combination to assess whether he got sufficient compensation for his huge sacrifice. And I thought it was significant, too, that once he made that assessment the game ended by the rather large margin of W+7.5. We would not normally class that as a close game, but in terms of earlier decisions it was obviously a close-run thing.

There is room for debate about both the assessment itself and the final interpretation of "closeness", but it seems pretty clear that both players felt the need for more time and were willing to give something up for it.

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #53 Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:28 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 753
Location: UK
Liked others: 443
Was liked: 78
Rank: OGS 9kyu
Universal go server handle: WindnWater, Elom
Would Lee Sedol 9p or especially Rui Naiwei 9p have a different opinion? I heard Lee Sedol wanted more time against Alpha-Go.

Shorter limits seem to be the best for ascertaining skill between players; it allows for more games and may give bigger differences in winrate for small differences in strength. Granted, it is of course not a foolproof method as longer games emphasise different skillsets to shorter games. More on that later.

My confusion is that one would expect at the very least for the professionals that have proven their strength twice to get to play in many matches with long time limits.

Another point is that while shorter limits shower better how a go game feels to the casual mind-sports-are-boring-arien, it becomes more difficult for commentators to tell which moves might actually work or not and speak to us their conclusion the closer a game gets to mach one. For the pros playing, it 's like hunting for treasure with a storm on the way; 'X marks the spot' becomes 'sonic X marks the spot'. For all levels, longer time limits do a better job of teaching, I think.

At the end of the yose, it's longer time limits that offer the most connection between pros and amateurs. Trying one's very best with the skill one has.

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #54 Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:45 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 141
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 29
Is there a correlation for Yi Ch'ang-ho between playing times and money? I hope he has still a sensible income from playing.

_________________
If something sank it might be a treasure. And 2kyu advice is not necessarily Dan repertoire..

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #55 Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:26 am 
Judan

Posts: 5455
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 305
Was liked: 2885
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
I'd hope Lee Changho invested a fair chunk of his substantial winnings from his glittering career and would get a tidy income from that.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #56 Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:49 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 216
Liked others: 153
Was liked: 117
bayu wrote:
Is there a correlation for Yi Ch'ang-ho between playing times and money? I hope he has still a sensible income from playing.


I don't think Lee Changho can make a living income from playing, maybe only top few players can do that. The only way to make an income from playing is to win titles, or to at least be in top 4 or so.
I am pretty sure though he can make a good living income from other sources, mostly from teaching and from books, since he is famous and very well respected for his past achievements.

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #57 Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:39 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 216
Liked others: 153
Was liked: 117
mhlepore wrote:
Rather, it was concerned that blitz-ish games shift the early game strategy away from deep strategical thinking and toward fighting.
- It is my understanding that Koreans started having success with messy fighting decades ago, before short games became ubiquitous. If so, I think an argument could be made that the shift to more fighting was going to happen anyway, and it has enhanced value in short games. Short games, however, are not by themselves the cause of the strategy shift.


I agree here, I don't think shorter/longer main time would change one's strategy much. (I am not talking about extreme blitz games).

The shift towards more fighting style I think is attributable to Korean and Chinese players ability in the 90's to step back and question what in the Japanese Go scene was considered "sacred", namely good looking shapes, and finding that Go is much more profound that what it was thought.
That was a revolution in Go, and it is very similar to what AlphaGo did to top human pros couple of years ago, when it revealed yet another level.

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #58 Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:08 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 203
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 17
Rank: 2d
sorin wrote:
The shift towards more fighting style I think is attributable to Korean and Chinese players ability in the 90's to step back and question what in the Japanese Go scene was considered "sacred", namely good looking shapes, and finding that Go is much more profound that what it was thought.
That was a revolution in Go, and it is very similar to what AlphaGo did to top human pros couple of years ago, when it revealed yet another level.
But is "profound" the right word here? If you mean case-by-case decisions (reading), then the opposite word also seems fit. Alphago for example had it's play praised for showing humans that all moves are possible and need to be considered.

OC much of these changes were also meaningful in a generalized way (more contact plays, more active/fighting lines, new techniques), and meant an advance of strategy, but the other half also seems a bit sad and devaluing.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #59 Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:05 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 216
Liked others: 153
Was liked: 117
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
I don't know about Lee Changho in particular, but I heard from multiple sources that playing with short time limits does very little to the quality of a pro's game in general.
I heard that pros estimate the difference to be only 1-2 points.


I would query this on several points. For one thing, it's in stark contrast to what I read. I also wonder whether you have been reading or hearing English translations, in which case I'd query (on linguistic grounds) whether the real meanings were shorter (not short) time limits and that the difference is not 1-2 points but a few points.

Leaving that to one side, though, to maintain your view I still think you would have to explain why a small handful of pros are famous for excelling in lightning go. If it was normal for the average pro to drop 1-2 points at most, I hardly think they would single out a few pros who, by that criterion, must be as good at lightning go as they are at slower go (and that alone beggars belief). You would also have to explain away the many games where pros admit they have made endgame mistakes larger than 2 points or, alternatively, why they are just as bad at counting the endgame in slow as well as fast games. Even people who are expert in the endgame, such as O Meien, say e.g. "But since the size of a play can only be calculated by means of a de-iri calculation, it takes a long time." And has also says "Endgame was accurate in those days (Edo times) because there were no time limits", which implies with time limits that endgame plays are not necessarily accurate, and in fact noticeably inaccurate enough to make it possible to make that statement.


I tried to remember where I read/heard this, and most likely it was during some live commentary on youtube during the past couple of years; Myungwan Kim and/or Jennie Shen. It may have been specifically about top players, not meant as a generic statement about all pro players.

The kind of endgame calculations that O Meien talks about is still just an approximation when done in late middle-game; there is no way "all possible variations" would be taken into account, unless one is in very late endgame. So as an approximation, I guess one can do it faster or slower, with more or less accuracy, just like any other decision made during the game.

John Fairbairn wrote:
And if extra time makes no difference, why do so many pros "buy" it under Ing rules?


I would be very interested to learn about statistics for this, if you have any!

John Fairbairn wrote:
Further, you have to explain why many pros have gone on record to complain about extreme shortening of time limits, and why limits have recently started edging back up in some cases. This wouldn't happen unless pros asked for it, surely? I think I did publish somewhere a long list of their various comments when this first became an issue. As I recall, it was especially but not exclusively the older ones. I imagine the very young pros don't complain because it's a big advantage for them, not because they think it doesn't affect the game.


That is totally understandable, of course an older player will be affected by short time limits much more than a younger player.
By the way, I am not a fan of blitz games for pros - other than the NHK type of tournament, which has its own place.
I think 2-3h main time games should be fine and should become standard.

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: What a crying shame!
Post #60 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:06 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 216
Liked others: 153
Was liked: 117
moha wrote:
But is "profound" the right word here?

Err... yes, I will stick to "profound" :-)

moha wrote:
If you mean case-by-case decisions (reading), then the opposite word also seems fit. Alphago for example had it's play praised for showing humans that all moves are possible and need to be considered. OC much of these changes were also meaningful in a generalized way (more contact plays, more active/fighting lines, new techniques), and meant an advance of strategy, but the other half also seems a bit sad and devaluing.

I think I understand your reservations - I feel the same way emotionally, as in some of "the old magic disappeared". On the other hand, rationally speaking, we learned that there are new/better ways to play, so "new magic appeared".

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group