It is currently Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:07 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #1 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:16 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 565
Location: Vienna, Austria
Liked others: 249
Was liked: 291
Lee Sedol 9p has announced his retirement.

He says it's not a sudden decision; he feels it's getting more difficult to win against younger players, and that, while he retires from competition, he still wants to do things in the Go world.

https://sportsseoulweb.jp/sports_topic/id=2751


This post by Marcel Grünauer was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #2 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:43 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 896
Location: UK
Liked others: 68
Was liked: 467
Rank: 5 dan
KGS: macelee
He announced that after losing an exhibition game to Ke Jie. I would say he was very comprehensively beaten in that game. Ke Jie's opening was like a ruthless robot (following Fine Art's suggestions pretty closely, including some strange-looking second-line moves) while Lee Sedol apparently were not familiar with AI plays.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #3 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:16 am 
Judan

Posts: 5880
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 335
Was liked: 3140
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Yes, I thought the game was rather apt as a retirement game, with the younger generation playing the new AI style (kick and 2nd line invasion) beating the old guard playing what we used to think was a good enough answer to these once unfamiliar moves. I even seem to recall some thread here about what does white do if black separates the 2nd line invasion in the same shape from an AlphaGo game and Ke Jie did exactly what I thought with the jump and the 3rd line extend/armpit hit (same idea as this pre-AI middlegame joseki from 3-4).

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #4 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:53 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8455
Liked others: 1465
Was liked: 1402
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Recap from the article below ([1])... When asked about this year's plan's, he noted that:
Quote:
올해는 정말 느낌이 다르다. 바둑을 6살 때 시작했고, 1995년에 입단을 했다. 승부사로서 활약은 올해가 마지막인 것 같다. 그래서 더욱 커제9단과의 대국이 의미가 있지 않았나 싶다


Roughly translated:
Quote:
This year feels really different. I started playing go when I was 6, and in 1995 I became a pro. It looks like this year is the last year that I'll be active as a competitor. On top of that, more and more, it seems that my matches with Ke Jie 9d haven't had any meaning.


In my opinion, Lee Sedol has always been a bit dramatic and unpredictable when it comes to his career, but it seems like a good time to stop. He's had a very good run, and has had a commendable career. Bravo!

[1] http://cyberoro.com/news/news_view.oro? ... num=525211

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness


This post by Kirby was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #5 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:13 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Liked others: 53
Was liked: 104
Anyone got a link to the kifu?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #6 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:15 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4243
Location: North Carolina
Liked others: 442
Was liked: 695
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 3k
go4go has a record. It requires registration, but it's free.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #7 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:43 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8455
Liked others: 1465
Was liked: 1402
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness


This post by Kirby was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, gamesorry
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #8 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:24 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 234
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 30
Rank: 2d
macelee wrote:
Ke Jie's opening was like a ruthless robot (following Fine Art's suggestions pretty closely, including some strange-looking second-line moves)
He was rumoured to have personal access to Fine Art, wasn't he? I guess humans can learn to do many things efficiently, not just playing go but also predicting a certain player's moves.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #9 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:10 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Liked others: 53
Was liked: 104
Thanks, Kirby, for that sgf.
Ke Jie does play very strangely and he is the example of a pro taking up the AI style of play.
I see Lee Sedol as someone who doesn't, and in a way I'm also glad to see those people!

I wish Lee Sedol the best in his life, he's had a wonderful, wonderful career and I think he'll be remembered for a while, mostly for his interesting Go playing style. Perhaps also for his famous Broken Ladder game.

Hopefully he'll write another book of commented games, now!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #10 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:58 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 330
Liked others: 271
Was liked: 168
macelee wrote:
He announced that after losing an exhibition game to Ke Jie. I would say he was very comprehensively beaten in that game. Ke Jie's opening was like a ruthless robot (following Fine Art's suggestions pretty closely, including some strange-looking second-line moves) while Lee Sedol apparently were not familiar with AI plays.


I see only one move of Ke Jie that may qualify as "strange looking", the O2 move (instead of the more standard looking O3) at move 34. Were there other strange moves highlighted in pro comments maybe?

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #11 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:54 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 20
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 2
Rank: 1d
Universal go server handle: iopq
E3 wasn't on LZ's radar, but the win rate after the joseki is complete is comparable anyway. But the more Lee Sedol plays the more Leelaz hates his position.


Last edited by iopq on Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #12 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:09 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1304
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 184
Was liked: 579
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 3d TG 4d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
I wonder why the AI style is considered aesthetically less pleasing than the conventional human style. Is it objective aesthetics? Or is it pure conventionalism? I think that the "new fuseki" by Go Seigen was similarly received as ugly or brutal, with its too symmetrical opening moves at the expense of the beautifully skewed 3-4's.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #13 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:28 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Liked others: 53
Was liked: 104
Knotwilg wrote:
I wonder why the AI style is considered aesthetically less pleasing than the conventional human style. Is it objective aesthetics? Or is it pure conventionalism? I think that the "new fuseki" by Go Seigen was similarly received as ugly or brutal, with its too symmetrical opening moves at the expense of the beautifully skewed 3-4's.


It's purely subjective, of course.
And New Fuseki is uglier than Old Fuseki.

The old games flow so beautifully. Aaah... Peace and quiet, 3-4 fun!

New Fuseki wants to move so quickly across the board. Take it easy, there, tiger!


Well. It's a matter of conventionalism, I suppose. Why do we cringe when we see an empty triangle? Doesn't it look so ugly? Is it ugly because we've associated it with less liberties etc...? Has it always been ugly?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #14 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:30 am 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 71
Location: Warsaw, PL
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 17
Rank: EGF 8k
Universal go server handle: yakcyll
Knotwilg wrote:
I wonder why the AI style is considered aesthetically less pleasing than the conventional human style. Is it objective aesthetics? Or is it pure conventionalism? I think that the "new fuseki" by Go Seigen was similarly received as ugly or brutal, with its too symmetrical opening moves at the expense of the beautifully skewed 3-4's.
I think the matter is quite arbitrary. However, the same process as you described - where people get accustomed to formations produced by bots and find them more harmonious - may occur in this case as well. I have my own doubts about this, as I find AI moves to be quite erratic and lacking said harmony. When humans play, the stones seem to flow, the formations are built; when bots play, the formations emerge as if from vast depths of the goban.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #15 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:37 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Liked others: 53
Was liked: 104
yakcyll wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
I wonder why the AI style is considered aesthetically less pleasing than the conventional human style. Is it objective aesthetics? Or is it pure conventionalism? I think that the "new fuseki" by Go Seigen was similarly received as ugly or brutal, with its too symmetrical opening moves at the expense of the beautifully skewed 3-4's.
I think the matter is quite arbitrary. However, the same process as you described - where people get accustomed to formations produced by bots and find them more harmonious - may occur in this case as well. I have my own doubts about this, as I find AI moves to be quite erratic and lacking said harmony. When humans play, the stones seem to flow, the formations are built; when bots play, the formations emerge as if from vast depths of the goban.


Hm, yes. It probably also has something to do with understanding the moves. When we see pros play a move, we don't understand half of what that move is doing, but most of the time we have some idea, we can see what it does.
With bots, you often stare at the board and go like: 'huh?'

It's so alien. And then that move comes into play dozens of moves later and you see why it was played.
It's unnatural to us. Most of us don't get it. Not that we get professional moves, either, but we believe we do, and that's what makes it beautiful :lol:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #16 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:18 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1304
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 184
Was liked: 579
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 3d TG 4d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
yakcyll wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
I wonder why the AI style is considered aesthetically less pleasing than the conventional human style. Is it objective aesthetics? Or is it pure conventionalism? I think that the "new fuseki" by Go Seigen was similarly received as ugly or brutal, with its too symmetrical opening moves at the expense of the beautifully skewed 3-4's.
I think the matter is quite arbitrary. However, the same process as you described - where people get accustomed to formations produced by bots and find them more harmonious - may occur in this case as well. I have my own doubts about this, as I find AI moves to be quite erratic and lacking said harmony. When humans play, the stones seem to flow, the formations are built; when bots play, the formations emerge as if from vast depths of the goban.


I don't have that experience. I've found the bots play surprisingly intuitive. Sure, there has been a paradigm shift, with more tenuki, even more "coners; sides; centre", more territory, less influence ... But not the kind of constant "ear reddening moves" I had expected. In fact, I have found bot play easier to interpret than games of Go Seigen or Lee Sedol

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #17 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:20 am 
Judan

Posts: 5880
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 335
Was liked: 3140
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
I don't share in the presumed orthodoxy expressed here that bot games are ugly, unnatural, hard to understand etc. In fact I find a lot of them beautifully clear, with a focus on the important areas of the board, great local technique, sharpness, whole board balance etc etc. See for example viewtopic.php?p=241836#p241836 or viewtopic.php?p=240382#p240382 or viewtopic.php?p=240789#p240789 beating up an 8p. Maybe that's because I'm stronger than e.g. Ian and have got quite used to LZ style from playing as it on Fox (and using Lizzie I can interactively ask it questions to understand its play more). Also when LZ can easily beat a Fox 9d it can probably afford to play simpler style, but the games against other people using bots too aren't so different IMO.

P.S. Ninjad by Knotwilg

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #18 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:29 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 429
Liked others: 39
Was liked: 135
Just to clarify: for those who say that bot moves are easy or hard to understand, are you talking about bot selfplay games or of bot vs. humans?

What I find hard to follow in bot selfplay games, is the fact that they tenuki quite often. But some pro moves are also difficult to understand, and only become clear (for me) 10 or 20 moves later.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #19 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:50 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Liked others: 53
Was liked: 104
If you talk about aesthetics, or beauty, it's hard to reason why something is so or not so.
Those things come from feeling.

I am re-playing both Invincible and Invisible, so I'm doing the games of Shusaku and the games of AlphaGo (against other humans).
I find the difference in games to be tremendous.

But this probably also comes from a too one-sidedness that arises in the AlphaGo vs. humans matches. It's basically a slaughter, and many games in that book don't go past move 140, 150 or 160.
So perhaps that is also a factor.

But if you go by feeling alone, for me the AI style is "ugly". I'm not saying it's not deadly effective. But remember the last episode of Hikaru No Go, where the old man says: "Go is a two player game".

AI vs human is not a two-player game, and that takes away the beauty.
The most beautiful games are those where both players push each other to their limits.
So perhaps AI vs AI, then?

Yet don't underestimate the psychological aspect. If you know a game comes from 2 computers, you're bound to look differently at it. I'm most likely guilty of that, too. And deep inside you want to find beauty in human-ness, in nature. Not in robots or technology. I think.


It's always dangerous to make a comparison, but take cycling. (for some), it's a beautiful sport to watch. Every race tells a story, like every Go game tells a story.
What would we feel if all cyclists were replaced by robots. Technically they'd ride much better. Yet the beauty of the sport would be hugely impacted.
Sorry for the bad comparison :lol:
For some of us, Go tells a story. For some of us, the top Go players bare a peace of their soul on the Goban. What is more beautiful than that? Certainly not an algorithm telling me the 3-3 is technically a better play in that circumstance.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #20 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:17 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8492
Liked others: 2484
Was liked: 2946
jlt wrote:
Just to clarify: for those who say that bot moves are easy or hard to understand, are you talking about bot selfplay games or of bot vs. humans?

What I find hard to follow in bot selfplay games, is the fact that they tenuki quite often. But some pro moves are also difficult to understand, and only become clear (for me) 10 or 20 moves later.


Yes, the self play games look different, and the frequent tenuki give less of a sense of the flow of the stones.

yakcyll wrote:
I find AI moves to be quite erratic and lacking said harmony. When humans play, the stones seem to flow, the formations are built; when bots play, the formations emerge as if from vast depths of the goban.


Perhaps when they are playing so that they can play millions of games for trying in a short period of time. Then they mostly rely upon their "intuition" (weights) without reading deeply (for them). By comparison, when bot faces bot with thinking time, perhaps they play more like humans. Case in point. Uberdude has been playing as Lizzie online, with thinking time.

Uberdude wrote:
I don't share in the presumed orthodoxy expressed here that bot games are ugly, unnatural, hard to understand etc. In fact I find a lot of them beautifully clear, with a focus on the important areas of the board, great local technique, sharpness, whole board balance etc etc.


----

I have been wondering if the bots have given us a glimpse of what human go may have become without them in a few hundred years. I have recently looked at a couple of ancient, pre-Dosaku, go games with different eyes. The top players' tactical abilities were probably on a par with those of today's top players, but I think that today's top amateurs could give them a run for their money, if not trounce them. The first thing that strikes me is that they (pre-Dosaku) have no feel for overconcentration, which even today's amateur SDKs have. The second thing is that their understanding of the center is not as good as that of today's amateur dan players. (Again, pre-Dosaku.)

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Kirby and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group