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 Post subject: Re: Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!
Post #41 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:50 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
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Hayashi Gembi uses 侵分 in his Gokyoseimyo, vol. 2. Using katakana he explains it as making an invasion inside territory (ji no naka e uchikomu).


Yes, and you will recall that Hayashi Genbi was a plagiariser from Chinese sources. His father in law was a bona fide Chinese scholar and seems to have found a way to get Chinese texts for him.

The point there is that one of the most famous texts would have been Guo Bailing's Guanzi Pu. Although this is sometimes regarded as a standard life & death collection, many of the problems are in fact what I call encroachment problems - a specific subset of boundary plays. (And guanzi was/is a Chinese term for the yose, of course). Genbi appears to have latched on to this type of problem as a novelty.


Sakata combines the study of life and death and yose in one of his Killer of Go set. I like the idea of studying them together. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!
Post #42 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:37 pm 
John Fairbairn wrote:
Because it is prophylactic it is also gote
Sorry, John, that cannot be right. Prevention is better than cure, so gote prophylaxis is sensible conservationism, but any move in Go that does not achieve at least two objectives is worth only half of one that does.

Prophylaxis does not (should not) imply gote - Wilcox's Sector Line moves (arguably not original to him) are a prime example; they combine expansion (and border defence) with reduction, so a decent Sector Line move would be one that threatened a substantive follow-up such as an invasion, so it would be be Sente. I imagine a situation could also arise in which a border defence could simultaneously be a ko-threat, and that any Go scholar worth his salt would be able to find quite a few examples of such in famous games of the past.

John Fairbairn wrote:
Yose Jose
John is a scholar of Japanese linguistics history, but 99% of native Japanese speakers, including 99% of Go writers, are not, so there is every likelihood they use terms with contemporary colloquial meanings in an informal way. When you start mixing in Russian speakers of English talking about Japanese loan-words, the opportunity for confusion from Chinese whispers accelerates into Double-Dutch.

As a lifelong Go novice and illiterate, when i use a word, i use it to mean what i want it to mean, neither more nor less,

, and in the case of Yose, the working definition in some book whose name and author i cannot remember - James Davies "The Endgame"? - is good enough for me:

yose begins when there are no more semeais and the only thing that counts is what counts, as the actress said to the Count.

But (∀m)¬((Y(m)⊃c(m))⊃(c(m)⊃Y(m))) [what the Hell does that* mean?!]

*just because Yose means counting, that does not mean counting means Yose.


Last edited by jaca on Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!
Post #43 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:46 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:
Sure there is, in the way you apply these technical aspects, and I'm sure a (Chinese) pro will have physical sensations that refine the idea of "tiny adjustments" into dozens of mental concepts, just like the Inuit have a 1000 words for snow. But this "extra" is of little use to the amateur, even aspiring ones, because they can get 99% of their potential improvement from paying attention to footwork, waist rotation and grip relaxation.


This is a point worth repeating. Here on L19, we like to argue about nuances and small details, which probably account for 1% of our potential improvement. Likewise, teachers like to talk about what makes people strong, but there's a difference between getting strong and actually understanding how you became strong in a way to accurately articulate the reasons. But telling people that there's no shortcut to success doesn't do well for your YouTube subscriber count.

We know how to get better at go:
- Play games and review games
- Go problems
- Review high level games
- Play stronger players

We like to look for shortcuts, like whether yose means the same thing as endgame. But it's not some enlightening secret that will suddenly increase our strength in go.

But hey - it's fun to chat, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!
Post #44 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:50 pm 
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jaca wrote:
John is a scholar of Japanese linguistics history, but 99% of native Japanese speakers, including 99% of Go writers, are not, so there is every likelihood they use terms with contemporary colloquial meanings in an informal way.


If 99% of native speakers use a word for a particular meaning, I'd argue that the word carries that meaning. Language is fluid, and changes over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!
Post #45 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:59 pm 
Kirby wrote:
waist rotation
Oh, no, Jose! That's not the way to Sante Fe, it's hip rotation that matters, as Gary will explain in due course.
Kirby wrote:
If 99% of native speakers use a word for a particular meaning
You misquote me - i never said that, i never meant that, and i emphatically deny ever having thought that. For example, the contemporary colloquial dictionary meaning of the word "omoshiroii" is "interesting", but when said by a young Japanese girl (some of them, anyway, more often than not, as the case may be, to coin a phrase so to speak), it means "Oh, how boring! How can i get away?!!", or, alternatively, "where the Heck did you get such a stupid idea??!!", or, alternatively, "i have no idea what you are talking about".

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Post #46 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:35 pm 
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jaca wrote:
Kirby wrote:
waist rotation
Oh, no, Jose! That's not the way to Sante Fe, it's hip rotation that matters, as Gary will explain in due course.
Kirby wrote:
If 99% of native speakers use a word for a particular meaning
You misquote me - i never said that, i never meant that, and i emphatically deny ever having thought that. For example, the contemporary colloquial dictionary meaning of the word "omoshiroii" is "interesting", but when said by a young Japanese girl (some of them, anyway, more often than not, as the case may be, to coin a phrase so to speak), it means "Oh, how boring! How can i get away?!!", or, alternatively, "where the Heck did you get such a stupid idea??!!", or, alternatively, "i have no idea what you are talking about".


I don't see where we disagree - I'm claiming that, when a lot of people use a word for a particular meaning, in some sense, it has that meaning. In your example, if a lot of Japanese girls imply a particular meaning when using a phrase, the phrase, in some sense, has that meaning among that population.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

P.S. If the topic is misquoting, I'm not the one who mentioned waist rotation :-)

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Post #47 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:27 pm 
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jaca wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
Because it is prophylactic it is also gote
Sorry, John, that cannot be right. Prevention is better than cure, so gote prophylaxis is sensible conservationism, but any move in Go that does not achieve at least two objectives is worth only half of one that does.


You may find the thoughts of Kasparov interesting in regard to prophylaxis. See viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7456&p=123131&hilit=Kasparov+prophylactic#p123131

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 Post subject: Re: Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!
Post #48 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:26 pm 
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jaca wrote:
yose begins when there are no more semeais and the only thing that counts is what counts, as the actress said to the Count.


This is a bad description because many local endgames that are semeais (or other local life and death situations) are evaluated by counts like those that aren't. If yose shall be considered a game phase, a better description is that the large-scale partition of the position into local endgames does not change any more except for their settling, which may involve ko exchanges so that each ko threat region is like a local endgame. This improved description overlooks multiple threats against two or more local endgames and other excitements, which can reopen middle game aspects of the game. Hence, it is hard to define the endgame phase as something clearly separate from the middle game.


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 Post subject: Re: Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!
Post #49 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:06 am 
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Quote:
As luck would have it, here is a source for modern Chinese usage. https://www.zhihu.com/question/53826401 :)


Bill: This is not really usage in the yose meaning, which was what I was referring to. In fact this Chinese usage seems to be limited to corner invasions at specific coordinates (2-5, 3-5 etc), which is an old usage. In practice these seem to be joseki names, in fact, and they don't occur in the endgame (nuff said!). Qinfen doesn't seem to be used on its own in modern go. I suspect the original meaning of "invade and divide" may derive from the group tax feature of old Chinese go, a concept - making the opponent have extra groups - Japanese go had no need of.

Quote:
Little off-topic but I can't seem to PM you: I'm reading your book on Honinbo Shuei right now. The book itself does not have his game records (for obvious reasons), instead they can be found at GoGoD. However, I'm pretty old-fashioned and only go through game records on paper. Do you know if there are any books on Shuei's games?
Alternatively, signing up for GoGoD, is there an alternative to PayPal?


Ian/Robert: The book will be print on demand, not electronic. I still have some anxieties about how well the binding will hold up in printed form as it will be big (c. 500 pages), but current plans are for paper. If that works, I may turn the digital version of Shuei's games and commentaries into paper. I now have even more commentaries on his games so I would like to do a new edition anyway. I can't say anything about the gogod site, you'll need to contact them direct (my daughter and son-in-law).

jaca: I recognise a fellow provocateur but I think you need to be a little more fact based. Gote doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. You seem to be thinking of "gote no sente," as have great men before you, so that's no shame. You may be interested in looking at e.g. kendo for more details. As to bowing to the 99% masses over usage, that's a chess player's mindset - all or nothing. I prefer the co-existence of go. I think the best example in (British) English is "chronic." It is used by the masses to mean "very, very bad." Doctors and other educated people use it to mean "persisting long-term." The Oxford English Dictionary lists the etymologically correct but less common version first and the "informal" British usage second, giving as an example "the film was absolutely chronic." That is, it accepts co-existence but makes a gentle implied statement about correctness. But that doesn't always help. How do you interpret "he was a chronic liar": a persistent liar or a very unconvincing one? Or on L19: "we have a chronic problem with thread derailers"?

侵分


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Post #50 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:49 am 
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I do not have experience with binding of 500 pages in softcover but know that the reliability of the binding depends on the carefulness of the binder's work and the adhesive. If you can, use a printing service that allows you to inspect a sample copy before ordering the print run. Especially inspect the second and second-last papers. The safe way would be two volumes.

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Post #51 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:39 am 
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Quote:
Or on L19: “we have a chronic problem with thread derailers”


Better yet: “we have a chronic problem with succumbing to the backfire effect”

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10 ... ffect/amp/

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 Post subject: Re: Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!
Post #52 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:27 am 
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If the early champions of spreading go in the west were all experts in linguistics and history, the most common terms may have also been the most suited, or even the most nuanced. However, I think it makes sense to say that they'd already done more than their stead by bringing go westward. But it doesn't mean their is little to gain from avoiding misconceptions that slow down the learning of what a term actually means, if not helping to speed up example-based learning in the case of some individuals.

Maybe some learn well through game records alone, and maybe one shouldn't expect to master difficult concepts without a barrel of examples, but I can imagine that someone who understands yose as a boundary play rather than the endgame would do better when selecting such moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!
Post #53 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:51 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
As luck would have it, here is a source for modern Chinese usage. https://www.zhihu.com/question/53826401 :)


Bill: This is not really usage in the yose meaning, which was what I was referring to. In fact this Chinese usage seems to be limited to corner invasions at specific coordinates (2-5, 3-5 etc), which is an old usage.


From what you wrote I did not get the idea that the Chinese had ever used 侵分 to mean yose. Didn't mean to get sidetracked.

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Post #54 Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:24 am 
Lives in gote

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John Fairbairn wrote:
I may turn the digital version of Shuei's games and commentaries into paper. I now have even more commentaries on his games so I would like to do a new edition anyway.


That would be so amazing. It could be like a new 'Invincible'. I really hope you go through with that plan.

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Post #55 Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:55 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
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Isn't all yose also by definition kakoi (not kakkoi, though)?


No. In go pro talk kakou is reserved for a high-level concept that hasn't really made it through to English yet. It's part of a nexus of prophylactic moves that includes e.g. mamoru and honte. It refers mainly to surrounding (loosely) an area that otherwise would be prone to invasion or erasure. Because it is prophylactic it is also gote and so it is the timing of it that makes it high level. Fujisawa Hideyuki is especially good on this term, and of course Sekiyama Riichi's famous gote no sente underlies this nexus, too.


I found this a nice example of kakoi (or at least my non-Japanese understanding of the concept), and punishing the failure to do it .

viewtopic.php?p=241458#p241458

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 Post subject: Re: Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!
Post #56 Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:50 pm 
there was a time, a long long time ago, long before i had ever heard of John Fairbairn, when i was happy.

Now he's got me running in ever-decreasing spirals, questioning every thought i ever had, which by his own indirect admission of being an agent provocateur, was his intention all along.

Not just me, of course (of my numerous failings, hubris is not one), but the entire L19 community.

And he seems to have succeeded admirably, for the pot of general confusion is cackling so hard and fast that global warming has gone into overdrive.

In desperation and despair, i turned to the only rock of ages solid fount of wisdom i can rely upon: The Urban Dictionary. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Yose

At last! Finally, something that actually makes sense :blackeye:

The Meaning Of Liff is Yose! - as an ardent hedonist, that's a little different from what i had fondly imagined 100 years ago, before those bloody Dunderheads Darwin and Dawkins came along, but consistent with it [and... sigh... them], for there is nothing so onerous and irksome as counting, let alone having to build Trumpwalls across empty space to keep imaginary wannabe invaders out, which Orson Welles warned us of and bothered me ever since listening to the radio.

Although yosed out from the exertion of reading dictionaries, at least i don't have to yose about it any more and can finally get some yose, perchance to yose of yoseing my way through the rest of the yose without a yose in the yose. See - You can understand that last sentence perfectly well just as it stands, so who needs other words?!

In the Beginning, There was the yose. Yose saw the yose, And it was yose. On the yoseth day, Yose took a yose, which is such a yose yose yose that i'm gonna have one too.
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jose.png
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