This thread seems to be going nowhere in terms of generating a consensus.

Not sure if anyone here has read the nice fiction blog post on "scissor statements" (https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/s ... roversial/), but I'm starting to wonder if we're being manipulated by a foreign power.

That I'm not so sure about, and I think that's far more open to discussion. I think things should be decided immediately, and because we're here a week later, it may just be that a full rematch is the only recourse. In the future, if evidence of lag can be ascertained immediately, I think resuming the game on the spot so long as there hasn't been any lapse of attention from the proctors would be a reasonable thing to do by default, with the full rematch only being done in situations where integrity of the game has been potentially compromised.

Most likely it is related to some event in European Go history.
I find it poor taste to perpetuate such a stigma, though, regardless of what may have happened in the past.

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Sorin - 361points.com

Tournament policy is beyond the scope of the referees' authority, as referees. I agree that it's important, but that's not the question they face.



Given the lack of a ruling as yet, I doubt that any clock was specified as the official clock.



As a tournament director, I doubt if the server was given the authority to declare the winner.



That's why there were monitors.



I agree.



Tournament policy is beyond the scope of any inquiry.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Embedded in this is the idea that policy trumps everything else, an idea with which I do not agree.

In a prefect world, following policy is a great idea - especially a policy written by someone with godlike wisdom. But experience has show that we mortals are imperfect, and that no policy will always cover every event.
Every system of rules has to have some final arbiter(s) who can make wise decisions by the seat of their pants when policy fails.

The integrity of the tournament is a laudable goal, but its last line of defense must be people, not policy.

In other words, I disagree with Violence's premise, and thus, with his conclusion.

We had a failure of policy. It is time for the judges to fill in the gap.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

I genuinely cannot tell clever humour from serious discourse in most circumstances, so just in case: a) this article is satire, b) Mateusz currently resides in Kazan, which is also brought up as the reason behind the lag and a potential future excuse in similar situations.
Sorry if I got whooshed.

Unofficial update:

I read today that some people will meet during the IMSA tournament to try and agree on what to do. Internet tournaments do have these problems built in. As I recall it, there was a UK player in the Pandanet Team event who was losing over 10 seconds per move just due to lag. It's a pity that this event, which is probably supposed to be something of a celebration of the young professional structures, has to deal directly with such base issues.

I suppose that there are 4 main options to pick.
* Win due to timeout
* Restart the game due to faulty clock
* New Game
* Double Loss

Whichever one is chosen, at least we can complain that it is the wrong one.

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North Lecale

The proctor is a neutral person obeserving the player. One technical solution would be to use client side timing. The EGF and AGA could provide a laptop to its player pre installed and given to the player by the proctor who would after the game take the computer back. The player would have no chance to install cheating clients etc.

Correctly, I mentioned it earlier.
When one side receives opponent's move, counting starts and is executed locally.
When move is played, move and time stamps are sent and compared with server time.

Also, it would be good to be able to customize byoyomi reading.


If a proctor is present, even with some kind of cheating client, it would not be so easy to activate cheat.

I know that your idea is good, but nobody is going to take the time and effort to implement some technological solution like that for a one off event.

_________________
North Lecale

A valid criticism of the double loss ruling is that Eric loses by fiat, not having done any of the things that are ordinarily required to lose:
- resign
- score game and have fewer points
- run out of time
- forfeit due to rule breach

So I propose a slight modification
1. Mateusz lost on time so next EGF pro plays
2. To decide if Eric lost play resumes between Mateusz and Eric from the last position pre KGS timeout loss
a. if Mateusz wins then Eric loses and next AGA pro plays
b. if Eric wins then he wins and plays next game for AGA.

This sets no precedent for future games, which must be played after clearer rules regarding lag in internet play are agreed.

This means no decision is made by the referees about the board state like 'Mateusz was winning by about 10 points'. The only effect the board state has is the 2nd-order effect of meaning the break in play is judged to offer neither side a significant advantage in being able to pause, collect their thoughts, ask a friend/bot.

I think there could be only 2 options for ruling:
- loss in the game due to timeout,
- continuation of game if lag argument is accepted.

Situation on the board is following:
White:
- 19 captures
- 6.5 komi
- upper group: 13+7 in best case scenario (black never plays first)
- lower group: 45 points
Total: 83 +7 in best case scenario

Black:
- 18 captures
- upper right: 15+1
- right: 2
- left and center: 60+3
Total: 95+4

Even if white takes basically all endgame points, he will loose by at least 5 points.
There was 6 places where it was possible to play, all worth less than 3 points.
It would probably end in some 10 points difference.
We can conclude that in this case game was basically decided, there was no chance to turnover, therefore there was no need for Black to try to manipulate game.

----

Finally, given all into account, it is embarassment for organizers of highest level intercontinental match with good prizes, to have such situation occured, and that game is to be decided not by players skill, but by technical unforeseen glitch or judges decision.

There is a precedent, going back to a different case where the rules were unclear.

Eric won, but Mateusz did not lose.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

It is not for one off event, but for all future hi-profile games.

It is unacceptable that hi-profile games in 2019. should depend on quality of connection, or any other technical problem.
What would happen if ie there was short power shortage in byoyomi?
Those questions must be addressed.

Agreed, except for the unforeseen part.

Edit: It may have been unforeseen, but it was definitely not unforeseeable. Netlag has been a problem for a long time.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Speaking of modified clients, I wonder if any players are using pasky's hacked KGS client. Unlike official KGS. it supports audible byo-yomi countdown (as most Asian servers and OGS do).

And on power cuts, does anyone know the PGETC rules for that? I know when South Africa joined the tournament that was an issue because they can suffer from rolling power outages.

With online games there is lot of things which can go wrong.

I am playing games on some 10 years old desktop computer, with Windows XP, integrated graphics card.

While playing PGETC game some years ago, during period when my opponent had to think a lot, I opened another window and took a look on my teammates games (what I usually do at live games as well). At that point I lost graphics in my game. I tried opening and closing window, applying different settings, and best I could do (without restarting computer) was to have stones in strange colors, on board without lines.
What to do in such situation?
Or if windows during long thinking decides to open screensaver, or run update, that could slow down game or make some other disturbances.
Etc, there is long list of unforeseen events that could go wrong.

On IGS, when you lose the connection (due to a power shortage, restarting the computer or anything else), you can reconnect within 5 minutes and resume the game.

I was under an impression you could set the timer to flash, beep or both for the last n seconds of byo-yomi in the official client as well (3.5.22).