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Who will win?
EGF pros 69%  69%  [ 40 ]
AGA pros 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #101 Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 12:59 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
HKA wrote:
Second, the people in the room with the players are NOT referees, they are proctors. They have two jobs - first, to observe the player and make certain no help of any kind AI or otherwise is happening, and to keep the communication open with the broadcast team. The proctor was NOT instructed to monitor any lag issues or to make any refereeing decisions outside of that mandate.


Oh, but making sure that the local timestamp is not forged would fall under the heading of making sure that no help of any kind is happening. :)

Truth be told, you could reduce the possibility of tampering with this mechanism, by introducing a procedure of delivering a trusted client onto a trusted system inside a virtual machine or something along these lines, to an "acceptable" margin; whatever "acceptable" means is another matter, but whatever words we would use to define it, one of them would be some form of "practical". However, this would require: a) a custom trusted client, b) a trusted source, c) a trusted system and a trusted machine (in case of a virtual machine, it's a matter of transmitting an image from the trusted source to the player, possibly along with the client). All these points add some technical difficulty into the mix, but when we're talking about a professional grade tournament, a bit of technical preparation beforehand won't hurt. Of course, this won't truly and clearly prevent timestamp cheating (without getting into details, the evil maid is always an inherent threat), but here we can go back to the pre-established definition of "acceptable".

If some new client software for KGS was devised now, it would surely draw from the experiences in network protocol design of popular gaming titles, old and new, which had and have to make sure not necessarily that everybody sees the same thing at once, but that eventually everybody will see the same thing, regardless of network quality, and the moments of inconsistencies will not lead to desynchronizations. After all, the server is the ultimate authority here and if inconsistencies do arise, it's much easier to enforce corrective or punitive action.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #102 Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 1:25 pm 
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As a German I say "was für eine verfickte Scheiße, der Rotz geht einem echt nur auf den Sack", I won´t translate, but all can be sure, it doesn´t show any happiness.
I think every participant should have a camera in the on his monitor, keyboard and mouse, so all can see, if he did something or not.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #103 Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 1:35 pm 
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Nethertheless is there a decision already? I didn´t hear anything, but first it was said we should look today. In the end, even if it´s decision against Mateusz, we could know, which pairing is next and we are still ahead in the EGF.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #104 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:34 am 
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If go clients work in a different way this sort of problem would not happen.
IE if time was counted locally, starting from receive of opponent's move, and ending upon playing of your move. On this way, all lag and delay would not be counted on player's time.
Also adjusting byoyomi reading style would be useful.

I know that some might say that someone vozld use flaw in this system, and disconnect from internet in order to get more thinking time on opponent's turn, but it is easy to monitor such activity.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #105 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:49 am 
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I don't understand what the fuss is all about. Mateuz was clearly ahead, there were what 10 moves, basically dame remaining? And he claims he played with a 10 sec margin. Give him the win already and next time plan more carefully the tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #106 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:01 am 
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I think we probably all agree that in a game played with clocks it should be possible to lose on time (e.g. it is late endgame and despite being safely ahead you get lost in thought trying to find the optimal semedori so you win by 11 not 10 points and don't play in time), but also that in some situations the clock can be overruled (e.g. there is a power cut at your home so you disappear from the internet for 10 minutes, or do strict time limits people think this should also be a loss?). The question is where does this situation (assuming we believe Mateusz's statement) of playing before the end of the period in local time but network troubles meaning it gets to the server too late lie on that spectrum?

Also something to bear in mind for those unfamiliar with KGS's handling of disonnects and lag: if you purposefully close your game window whilst still having a good connection then the clock pauses until you rejoin the game (and you are marked as an 'escaper'). So a conscious decision to leave the game and attend to a family emergency for example will not result in a time loss so long as you remember to close the game first. However, if network lag delays the transmission of your move (made before clock ends) to the server (arriving after clock ends) then you lose on time. However, there is a complication in that the KGS server appears to periodically/randomly poll the client for connectivity and if it finds the connection has dropped then you can enter the paused clock and marked as escaper state. I have not managed to reverse engineer the exact rules for this process, but is entirely plausible that it did not happen in the ~10 seconds window of Mateusz's case (it sometimes takes minutes in my experience).

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #107 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:33 am 
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dsatkas wrote:
I don't understand what the fuss is all about. Mateuz was clearly ahead, there were what 10 moves, basically dame remaining? And he claims he played with a 10 sec margin. Give him the win already and next time plan more carefully the tournament.


The problem is not so much for this game, but for future games if disconnections occur earlier. Clear rules have to be written.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #108 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 5:28 am 
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I think this comes down to whether we believe Mateusz’s statement. If he ran out of time, it should be his loss. If we believe that he played in time, but lag prevented the move, it seems appropriate to resume the game from that position.

I’m saying this, because when I asked about the rules for this tournament, I saw that there was a time limit, but no information about lag. So in the future, we should specifically define the rules for apparent lag.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #109 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 5:58 am 
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Kirby wrote:
I think this comes down to whether we believe Mateusz’s statement. If he ran out of time, it should be his loss. If we believe that he played in time, but lag prevented the move, it seems appropriate to resume the game from that position.

I’m saying this, because when I asked about the rules for this tournament, I saw that there was a time limit, but no information about lag. So in the future, we should specifically define the rules for apparent lag.

i believe Mateusz wholeheartedly, but i think the opposite.

if there is no specific rule about lag or disconnection in place, i think the cleanest solution is to accept the loss (unless Eric wants to decline his victory). and afterwards to put in place quite any rule concerning future similar scenarios. and as much as i like KGS, to consider if it is the best venue for this event. because according to KGS, Mateusz just lost on time, like any other player any other time. as far as i am aware, there are not even means to easily resume the game there if the referees decide to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #110 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 6:04 am 
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I hope they give soon a statement, if it´s not the decision, then an overview of the problems and a direction the thing goes. Normaly we should already know, who play the next game. And I´m for an camera for both players, placed in a way, that it can defintely be said if there a move or not, that we don´t have that problem anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #111 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 6:41 am 
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Quote:
i believe Mateusz wholeheartedly, but i think the opposite.

if there is no specific rule about lag or disconnection in place, i think the cleanest solution is to accept the loss (unless Eric wants to decline his victory). and afterwards to put in place quite any rule concerning future similar scenarios. and as much as i like KGS, to consider if it is the best venue for this event. because according to KGS, Mateusz just lost on time, like any other player any other time. as far as i am aware, there are not even means to easily resume the game there if the referees decide to do so.


I suppose I can see this perspective, too: the only thing the rules seem to say regarding time and venue is that the game is played on KGS, with the given time settings. Lag, distractions, house fires, earthquakes, etc., are not mentioned in the rules. From that perspective, the result given by KGS may be considered authoritative, since KGS (the venue) indicated a loss on time (per the rule-specified time settings).

Man, this is a weird situation :-)

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #112 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 7:05 am 
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Kirby and Laman both make very good points. Accepting that we believe Surma, Laman's position does seem pretty harsh. Fitting the facts as we know them now, particularly the board position viewed when not in the final moment of byo yomi, Kirby's position seems fair.

However, I would argue that it is bad precedent for how to handle the situation. In the law we call this "bad facts make bad law". Here, it seems clear - perhaps very close to 100% that Surma could not lose this position. So continuing from the position seems fair. Clearly, any chance Lui had of Surma making a mistake is gone, restarting the game after a thoughtful break, but there was not much of a chance anyway.

But the next time this happens, perhaps Surma's lock on the game is more fluid, the lead smaller, the game more complex - then the thoughtful break could reduce the a real chance of an upset to nothing.

For this reason, I think rematch is the best ruling as a precedent for future matches. Again, given the board position, this is harsh for Surma, but certainly not as harsh as losing a game because of lag.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #113 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 7:11 am 
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Another possible resolution that I don't think I've seen here is to declare the game a loss for both sides, and move on to the next player in line for both the AGA and EGF in the next match.

(I'm not saying that this is the resolution that I would advocate myself, but it should probably be in the mix.)


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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #114 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 7:38 am 
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Anyway, any decision will make some people unhappy. The referees should make their decision, the most important being that the rules for future matches are clear.


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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #115 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 7:40 am 
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Regarding precedent, future matches should be explicit on what happens in the case of lag, in the match rules/agreement beforehand. It is very hard to come to a resolution that pleases everybody after the fact :-)

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #116 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 7:42 am 
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dfan wrote:
Another possible resolution that I don't think I've seen here is to declare the game a loss for both sides, and move on to the next player in line for both the AGA and EGF in the next match.

(I'm not saying that this is the resolution that I would advocate myself, but it should probably be in the mix.)


I think this is actually quite an elegant solution (and without the damage of Solomon's judgement ;-)). Normally I don't think the board state should have much effect on rule decisions, but with the game so near the end and everything settled and a big lead for Mateusz I feel Eric winning on time thanks to lag is unsatisfactory. Mateusz being declared winner is outright wrong, it's a better result for him than if he didn't lag, whereas play continuing from the lag position would be more reasonable and is practically the same as he will almost certainly win. But even if Mateusz did lag this time he was often playing close to the end of the byo-yomi which is asking for trouble so suffering some consequences would be fair. A rematch has the problem of "What ifs?" and redundancy/boring: we've already seen these 2 play and if Mateusz wins again it feels like a bit of a duff match and Eric fans will say he really won the first game, and if Eric wins Mateusz fans say he really won the first game (were it not for lag). And in terms of interest in the event we get to see new players from both teams, whilst Mateusz can retire with 3 real wins and a 4th kind-of-win, in that he won on the board sans lag and eliminated the opposing player. It's probably the decision that minimises gross resentment on both sides, rather than maximising gross happiness.


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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #117 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 7:59 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
dfan wrote:
Another possible resolution that I don't think I've seen here is to declare the game a loss for both sides, and move on to the next player in line for both the AGA and EGF in the next match.

(I'm not saying that this is the resolution that I would advocate myself, but it should probably be in the mix.)


I think this is actually quite an elegant solution (and without the damage of Solomon's judgement ;-)). Normally I don't think the board state should have much effect on rule decisions, but with the game so near the end and everything settled and a big lead for Mateusz I feel Eric winning on time thanks to lag is unsatisfactory. Mateusz being declared winner is outright wrong, it's a better result for him than if he didn't lag, whereas play continuing from the lag position would be more reasonable and is practically the same as he will almost certainly win. But even if Mateusz did lag this time he was often playing close to the end of the byo-yomi which is asking for trouble so suffering some consequences would be fair. A rematch has the problem of "What ifs?" and redundancy/boring: we've already seen these 2 play and if Mateusz wins again it feels like a bit of a duff match and Eric fans will say he really won the first game, and if Eric wins Mateusz fans say he really won the first game (were it not for lag). And in terms of interest in the event we get to see new players from both teams, whilst Mateusz can retire with 3 real wins and a 4th kind-of-win, in that he won on the board sans lag and eliminated the opposing player. It's probably the decision that minimises gross resentment on both sides, rather than maximising gross happiness.


Seems like a pretty rational argument - effectively, it's like voiding the game, since a good solution cannot be achieved.

My only question in this scenario would be if the same policy is in effect for the remainder of the tournament - if someone else lags out, would that game be voided, too? E.g. it'd be pretty cheap, but if someone were behind on the board, maybe they opt to allow themselves to "lag out" in order to void the game.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #118 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 8:12 am 
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Kirby, no I wouldn't suggest lag => both lose for future situations, this is a decision that only works here because:
1) game was so near the end with one player clearly leading by a big (at pro level) margin
2) The lagging player was winning on the board (if lagger is losing then there's little problem in saying they lost)
3) rules weren't clear beforehand.

For future I think the rules should be clarified, my feeling is either a simple lag means you lose and tough luck to people with bad connections, or a rule to suspend the game or rematch in case of lag over a certain severity. How to measure that? Perhaps the proctors should run a looping ping command to the KGS server on a laptop on the same connection as the player, and if it drops below some threshold the match is adjourned and either resumes or rematches depending on referee judgement of how long/disruptive/unfair the pause is.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #119 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 8:16 am 
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dfan wrote:
Another possible resolution that I don't think I've seen here is to declare the game a loss for both sides, and move on to the next player in line for both the AGA and EGF in the next match.


Even better: declare the game won for both sides :-)

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #120 Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 8:16 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
dfan wrote:
Another possible resolution that I don't think I've seen here is to declare the game a loss for both sides, and move on to the next player in line for both the AGA and EGF in the next match.

(I'm not saying that this is the resolution that I would advocate myself, but it should probably be in the mix.)


I think this is actually quite an elegant solution (and without the damage of Solomon's judgement ;-)). Normally I don't think the board state should have much effect on rule decisions, but with the game so near the end and everything settled and a big lead for Mateusz I feel Eric winning on time thanks to lag is unsatisfactory. Mateusz being declared winner is outright wrong, it's a better result for him than if he didn't lag, whereas play continuing from the lag position would be more reasonable and is practically the same as he will almost certainly win. But even if Mateusz did lag this time he was often playing close to the end of the byo-yomi which is asking for trouble so suffering some consequences would be fair. A rematch has the problem of "What ifs?" and redundancy/boring: we've already seen these 2 play and if Mateusz wins again it feels like a bit of a duff match and Eric fans will say he really won the first game, and if Eric wins Mateusz fans say he really won the first game (were it not for lag). And in terms of interest in the event we get to see new players from both teams, whilst Mateusz can retire with 3 real wins and a 4th kind-of-win, in that he won on the board sans lag and eliminated the opposing player. It's probably the decision that minimises gross resentment on both sides, rather than maximising gross happiness.


Seems like a pretty rational argument - effectively, it's like voiding the game, since a good solution cannot be achieved.

My only question in this scenario would be if the same policy is in effect for the remainder of the tournament - if someone else lags out, would that game be voided, too? E.g. it'd be pretty cheap, but if someone were behind on the board, maybe they opt to allow themselves to "lag out" in order to void the game.


This is one the reasons I think, there should be an space for estimation. A referee or a jury could use this solution, but also different ones. With estimation, there can every time made an decision on the single situation. Here is it possible to look overall, what can be done.

The estimation can have these options:

Loss

Rematch

play from the point, where the game was at least

loss for both or at the end

or at least an deciding lightning game (an option if loss both is no solution, maybe if that occurs in the final, both teams got just one pplayer left).

A referee or a jury could estimate, on facts, how it occured, the position on board, the current stage of the competion, what the players say and prefer and maybe what would be the fastest solution.
There always will individuel problems in competitions, which need a single case solution.

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