It is currently Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:17 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 796 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 ... 40  Next

Who will win?
EGF pros 69%  69%  [ 40 ]
AGA pros 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 58
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #361 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:06 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 53
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 32
Rank: KGS 2k
How much more can they stack the odds in favour of the AGA players?


1. EGF players have to finish the games at 1 AM. Try suggesting to any mind sports tournament that its the correct time to play mind sports and theyll probobly laugh you out the door.

2. The tournament is played on a server in the US. So far this has been a theoretical advantage, now it is a very real one.

Because of it:

- The AGA players have more time to think, since EGF pros have to play well in advance
- The AGA players dont have to deal with the stress of disconnections, lag, etc. Just the knowledge of possible problems with connections will negatively affect the EGF players.

3. The referee has lived in the US since 2008, moved there to promote Go in the US, was part of forming the AGA Pro system. He also changed his opinion twice on the ruling in favour of the AGA. (Info taken from senseis, so please correct me if im wrong, and info might not be correct.)
Im sorry, but perhaps choose a referee next time whoms partiality cant so easily be questioned? I am not saying he is partial, im just saying that the optics arent exactly good, and i personally wouldnt trust a referee who has so strong connections to only one of the teams.


Turnings things the other way around, do you really think the AGA Pros would be happy with the following:
- Tournament played on a Russian server, with all AGA Pros experiencing random 1-10 second lag spikes and having to play with less time.
- Tournament ending at 1am or 2am for AGA Players
- Tournament referee (no referee committee, only one referee) who is Russian


This post by Aram was liked by 2 people: Marcel Grünauer, Renter
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #362 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:18 am 
Judan

Posts: 6013
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 342
Was liked: 3236
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Aram wrote:
3. The referee has lived in the US since 2008, moved there to promote Go in the US, was part of forming the AGA Pro system. He also changed his opinion twice on the ruling in favour of the AGA. (Info taken from senseis, so please correct me if im wrong, and info might not be correct.)

He moved back to Korea a year or two ago. But yes he was instrumental in setting up the AGA pro system. In fact as shown in the Surrounding Game film he makes the following speech to the new AGA pros Andy Liu and Gansheng Shi (video extract thanks to JeanSebL at https://www.facebook.com/transatlantict ... %22R%22%7D).
"You are not just individual Go players anymore. You are representing the American Go Association and the American Go community as a whole"

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #363 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:28 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 580
Location: Vienna, Austria
Liked others: 252
Was liked: 293
The poll needs a new option.

Who will win?
o EGF pros
o AGA pros
o Don't know
o Whoever the referee decides on (i.e., the the AGA pros)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #364 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:34 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1235
Liked others: 99
Was liked: 262
Is it true that both teams refused to agree to a rematch?

_________________
North Lecale

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #365 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:37 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 53
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 32
Rank: KGS 2k
Javaness2 wrote:
Is it true that both teams refused to agree to a rematch?


Does not matter. The referee can still decide it to be a rematch.

If either team after that ruling refuse the rematch, its on the team/players, not the referee. If both would refuse to play it would probably mean a loss for both sides.

A referees decission can not be influenced about what the teams refuse or do not refuse to do before there even is a ruling. The referee makes a ruling, not the teams.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #366 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:43 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1314
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 187
Was liked: 584
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 3d TG 4d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
yakcyll wrote:
I'd suggest a third option: do not change the rules, accept KGS as the time keeper and admit publicly that choosing KGS as the time keeper given the networking conditions betweeen the USA and Russia (mainly the distance) was a dumb idea from the beginning.


I get you, but as said, this can't be a logical consequence of the statement that "Mateusz knowing about lag affecting his play should have informed the organizers" implying they would then have done something else than nothing. If they don't change the rules now that they ARE informed, his not informing them can't have been a differentiator.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: yakcyll
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #367 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:46 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1235
Liked others: 99
Was liked: 262
It would be interesting to know if both teams flat out refused a rematch. Such an impasse might explain the final change. Certainly, I don't see anything else that does.

_________________
North Lecale

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #368 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:56 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 136
Liked others: 26
Was liked: 89
Rank: 5 dan
Javaness2 wrote:
It would be interesting to know if both teams flat out refused a rematch. Such an impasse might explain the final change. Certainly, I don't see anything else that does.

But rematch would be a stupidest idea in this stupidity fair.
If they played it under same rules, what would change?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #369 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 3:02 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1235
Liked others: 99
Was liked: 262
Bojanic wrote:
Javaness2 wrote:
It would be interesting to know if both teams flat out refused a rematch. Such an impasse might explain the final change. Certainly, I don't see anything else that does.

But rematch would be a stupidest idea in this stupidity fair.
If they played it under same rules, what would change?


It's not that stupid if you preface it with "We apologize for not having proper rules in place at the start of this event. From now on, these are the rules that we will use." I think it is quite diplomatic that way.

_________________
North Lecale


This post by Javaness2 was liked by 2 people: yakcyll, zermelo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #370 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 3:31 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 51
Location: Zapadlá Lhota
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 18
GD Posts: 50
yakcyll wrote:
Renter wrote:
Let this sink in: The tournament organizers are basically saying that if you do not after EACH AND EVERY lag spike inform the TOs of it, they will use that fact against you.
That's a strawman. Has anybody aside from Mateusz known that he had connectivity issues in previous games? Do you really think nobody would react and help him out if he had mentioned it the first time around, before a loss occurred because of it?

How could they react and help him? Do you think they would leave KGS and choose another server because of a 3-second lag? Did they do it now, after a 10-second lag?
It looks no measures that would cope with lags were taken now, even after one game was lost due to a 10-second lag.

(Moreover, if Mateusz reclaimed that loss of a period due to a 3-second lag, the referee would ask him whether he had another lag before. If Mateusz acknowledged he had some half-second lags before, it might end for him by another game lost by a refereee decision. ;-) )

So far it looks the message from the referee is
  • in case of lag problems you must inform us so that we can react
  • now we are informed, and we won't react

But I may be mistaken, and they will play next game with real boards and clocks, and proctors will send moves to KGS?

edit: clock->clocks


Last edited by k0n0 on Wed May 15, 2019 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

This post by k0n0 was liked by: Knotwilg
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #371 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:13 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 136
Liked others: 26
Was liked: 89
Rank: 5 dan
k0n0 wrote:
But I may be mistaken, and they will play next game with real boards and clock, and proctors will send moves to KGS?

Finally a good idea.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #372 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:14 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 136
Liked others: 26
Was liked: 89
Rank: 5 dan
While trying to send previous reply:

Quote:
This site can’t be reached www.lifein19x19.com took too long to respond.
Try:

Checking the connection
Checking the proxy and the firewall
Running Windows Network Diagnostics
ERR_CONNECTION_TIMED_OUT


Lag appears in topic about lag, showing off now, obviously.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #373 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:15 am 
Beginner

Posts: 7
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 4
Rank: ogs 8k
Bill Spight wrote:
Bojanic wrote:
PS for european side, I would demand that next year match is to be played at KGS (Kazan Go Server), so other team could experience same difficulties.


As someone on neither side, I would recommend having time kept locally, offline.



That would be either impractical or open even bigger can of worms. You either have smart client on players computer open for tinkering and fooling the server(there's reason why dumb clients are default...Smart clients can be tinkered and there's then no way for server to verify. In effect player could give himself more byo-yomi than assigned time and server would get moves correct times) OR you have to go for heavy duty. Private custom client with own servers installed on (laptop) computers which are delivered for the game by 3rd party for players and never left alone with players to ensure they don't install any hacks. Preferably with firewall preventing access to anything but relevant addresses for game.

Do you think that's feasible? But as it is only way to play for big prize pools online clearly. As is this is not appropriate for prize pools when server lag players can't control can decide fate of that money.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #374 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:21 am 
Beginner

Posts: 7
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 4
Rank: ogs 8k
Kirby wrote:
Presumably, when Mateusz was contesting the repeal, it became clear that the repeated lag on his end was something that he knew about before it was game deciding - and maybe if it had been brought up prior to game #4, they could have worked together to come to a way to mitigate the lag problem (or maybe clarify what should happen in the case of lag).

I should be clear, I know nothing about the reasoning behind Myungwan's decision - I'm simply reading what was given on the FB page.



Of course only way they could do something to that would be fly them to same place and play it live rather than online.

Online go seems to be failure for big real money tournaments and more of for fame and fun.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #375 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:24 am 
Beginner

Posts: 7
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 4
Rank: ogs 8k
jlt wrote:
Quote:
- Mateusz was aware of the technical issue for some time, but never reported the issue to the tournament organizers


Now the organizers are aware of a lag problem in Kazan. What will happen if another player (e.g. Ilya Shikshin) plays from there?


Kazan? Howabout finland on various sites. Happens to me as well. It's not just Kazan. It's INTERNET. Lag is quaranteed period. Whole TCP protocol is built on assumptions packets WILL be lost and built so that they will get through no matter how long it takes. Because delays and packet losses are 100% quaranteed part of internet. There is no way to ensure those will never happen.


This post by tneva82 was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Joaz Banbeck
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #376 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:32 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 500
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 175
One way to reduce the costs could be:

  • Play a few rounds online, but each side uses a real board and a real clock, the proctor relays moves on KGS.
  • For the final rounds, use an international event (e.g. IMSA) that most players attend to anyway, and stay 2-3 more days.

tneva82 wrote:
Kazan? Howabout finland on various sites. Happens to me as well. It's not just Kazan. It's INTERNET.


I know, I should have said "at least in Kazan there is a serious lag problem which may cause delays of more than 10 seconds".

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #377 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:58 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8706
Liked others: 2556
Was liked: 2990
Javaness2 wrote:
Quote:
What does his ruling hold for future games, what does it mean?


Players should call the referee or TD when an irregularity has occurred, to protect themselves.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #378 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:01 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8706
Liked others: 2556
Was liked: 2990
jlt wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Kazan? Howabout finland on various sites. Happens to me as well. It's not just Kazan. It's INTERNET.


I know, I should have said "at least in Kazan there is a serious lag problem which may cause delays of more than 10 seconds".


I live in a major metropolitan area in the US, and I regularly get a message saying, "You are not connected to the internet." It can take minutes to reconnect.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #379 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 51
Location: Zapadlá Lhota
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 18
GD Posts: 50
Bill Spight wrote:
Players should call the referee or TD when an irregularity has occurred, to protect themselves.
The question is: what is an irregularity?

The text "to protect themselves" indicates "irregularities" might be regarded from the point of view of players.
From the point of view of Mateusz a 3s-lag wasn't irregular, and Mateusz got accustomed with it, by playing at least 10s in advance.
Only the 10s-lag was irregular, and he reported it.

Still the verdict is blaming Mateusz.
So it looks in the verdict they speak rather about general KGS/internet irregularities. But lags are quite regular with both internet and KGS.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #380 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8706
Liked others: 2556
Was liked: 2990
tneva82 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Bojanic wrote:
PS for european side, I would demand that next year match is to be played at KGS (Kazan Go Server), so other team could experience same difficulties.


As someone on neither side, I would recommend having time kept locally, offline.



That would be either impractical or open even bigger can of worms. You either have smart client on players computer open for tinkering and fooling the server(there's reason why dumb clients are default...Smart clients can be tinkered and there's then no way for server to verify. In effect player could give himself more byo-yomi than assigned time and server would get moves correct times) OR you have to go for heavy duty. Private custom client with own servers installed on (laptop) computers which are delivered for the game by 3rd party for players and never left alone with players to ensure they don't install any hacks. Preferably with firewall preventing access to anything but relevant addresses for game.

Do you think that's feasible? But as it is only way to play for big prize pools online clearly. As is this is not appropriate for prize pools when server lag players can't control can decide fate of that money.


For this particular tournament, with one player playing locally, you can have the player using a real board with a clock, while a proctor relays the plays online, plays the opponent's stones, and keeps the time record offline. The proctor may also count byoyomi, just like in the old days. ;)

As for large tournaments with several players in one location at any time, perhaps they could play on a local network, with the local server keeping time and relaying plays to and from the internet. The organizers would be responsible for the integrity and security of the local server.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 796 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 ... 40  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group