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Who will win?
EGF pros 69%  69%  [ 40 ]
AGA pros 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #461 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:44 am 
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k0n0 wrote:
i really don't understand why should resuming play set a precedent?
Every ruling creates a precedent. That's what a precedent is.

k0n0 wrote:
Now we are in an unique and unfortunate situation, where tournament organizers forgot to create rules about lags and chose KGS which counts time at server's side.
This situation will never repeat: rules for this tournament are being created
Assuming rules are corrected, you're right about it being a one-time situation. I do understand the desire to rule in a way that creates no precedent. If the referee is not in a position to force new rules, he will decide without that assumption.

k0n0 wrote:
and kgs client will be hacked for purpose of this tournament.
Is that being proposed by anyone except a few people on L19? As a developer, I do not think that's a good idea. I actually think a purpose built server that uses the client to track time would be a modest investment and make sense. The games would be played there, and relayed to KGS or other servers for spectators.

That said, the EGF and AGA presumably don't have the resources to properly create such a server unless someone volunteers to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #462 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:45 am 
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dsatkas wrote:
ps1. If someone has leela-zero or is a high dan player, it would be nice to inform us of how many moves were left and how many of them were dame. Maybe, the difference of the points between excellent and "mediocre" play could be calculated and compared with the 10 point lead by black.

This should be good enough, I hope.
viewtopic.php?p=243678#p243678

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #463 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:02 am 
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k0n0 wrote:
i really don't understand why should resuming play set a precedent?

Rules say that if you run out of time you lose.
This case would be precedent, because it goes against this rule.

It could be later added as addition to current rule as:
"If a player tries to play on time, but he is stopped by technical malfunction, and loses on time, referee can order game to be resumed."
It can also be written differently.

You can never take into account all situations that could occur in the game.
That is why precedent principle could be useful.

For instance, someone could try to misuse this rule I wrote as example (ie fakes to push the button during fight, then claims it was malfunction, in order to get more time for thinking). With precedent, we could take into consideration all circumstances - ie in this situation game was practically over so we could rule out misuse.

------

Regarding appeals etc, I was surprised that referee ordered so quickly to resume game, because it is precedent (As a player I prefer that match should be decided by skill of play, but rules have to be carefully created).
More surprising is that AGA team did not appeal on this precedent, but sent whatever stupidities they wrote about their proctor, and even more surprising referee agreed to it.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #464 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:10 am 
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Since both the AGA and EGF professionals seem to prefer a rematch to the current result, can't they somewhat take matters into their own hands?

Have a rematch on their own. If Mateusz wins the rematch, then Eric forfeits the next match. If Eric wins the rematch, he continues.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #465 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:41 am 
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First similar question for both hyperpape and Bojanic:

hyperpape wrote:
k0n0 wrote:
i really don't understand why should resuming play set a precedent?
Every ruling creates a precedent. That's what a precedent is.
If you talk about a precedent, you must specify a legal system/legal environment you are talking about. Which one do you mean?
(For example I don't think that Myungwan's decision may become a precedent for next chess championships.
Do you mean the legal system of this Transatlantic tournament, of all future Transatlantic tournaments, of all go tournaments in the world ...?)

Bojanic wrote:
k0n0 wrote:
i really don't understand why should resuming play set a precedent?

Rules say that if you run out of time you lose.
This case would be precedent, because it goes against this rule.
Which rules do you mean? Rules of KGS? Rules of Transatlantic tournament? Other rules?

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and another point:
Rules that "say that if you run out of time you lose" are bad rules. Imagine you run out of time because someone just overturned a table with a goban.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #466 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 9:49 am 
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Bojanic wrote:
Rules say that if you run out of time you lose.
This case would be precedent, because it goes against this rule.

I don't know the typical wordings of the rule, but would guess it says something about not making the move (including pressing the clock) within the time limit. That is NOT what happened here.

It's possible to run out of time even if you make your move in time? A worse precedent.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #467 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:40 am 
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10161705073480228&set=a.10151468633310228&type=3 wrote:
...The AGA and EGF pros both have sat down and agreed that we would all prefer to have a rematch as it would be the most fair decision. Ultimately the decision rests upon the organizers and the referees and I think as professionals we should also agree to follow the rules and final decisions made by them...

"...The AGA and EGF pros both have sat down and agreed that we would all prefer to have a rematch..."

I can support this. I'd like to see the organizers respect the players wishes.


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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #468 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:52 am 
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It must be clearly stated that lag even if can be foreseeable is sth beyond player control.Exactly same as earthquake, rain etc. Punishing player for things beyond his control is strongly against spirit of game.

For everybody who is OK with decision some similar situation to think:

Game between A and B, there is scorer who is noting game. Player A leaves table, player B is in last period of Byo-yomi and he made a move on board however when trying to press clock he is forcefully stoped by someone (C), then C leaves room and cant be caught. The clock stops indicating loss on time. Player A was outside room when incident occured but now got back and declare loss by B by time. B protest and call referee.Referee comes in, scorer and B who both noticed whole incident tells same story. Referee calls lost on time, cuz scorer job was not to observe if game is not interrupted by outside circumastances but just note game moves.

Also, several ppl commented that state on board should not be considered when delivering ruling.Lets assume that this principle stands.Suppose if in game Lui-Surma, it was Lui who had irreversable huge lead (and same as in real Surma lagged).How now looks decision to declare game void and rematch? AGA pros said that they are sure that rematch would be fair decision, but how the hell i am pretty sure in that situation they would protest strongly every other decision than Lui+time or resume game (maybe with additional time for someone)?

More - rules of match are not japanese rules of KGS server, but japanese rules (no mention if 1949 or 1989).Its clearly stated that KGS is only a venue, and nothing more.Frankly japanese 1989 rules says nothing about clock malfunctioning.But says sth about spirit of game, and mutual trust.Those rules had been severly broken.

Btw, if there will be blackout in one of players cities, i guess player will default cuz he should have engine+generator combo (or move to city with better electricity)?


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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #469 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:23 am 
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Quote:
It must be clearly stated that lag even if can be foreseeable is sth beyond player control.Exactly same as earthquake, rain etc. Punishing player for things beyond his control is strongly against spirit of game.


That's why the initial ruling was not a loss by time. But I don't think it's as straightforward as you're suggesting.

I probably have less sympathy for Mateusz than the average person, mostly since he mentioned losing a byo-yomi period in an earlier game. While lag cannot be avoided, it can be mitigated. This is obvious to me, because I've tried playing KGS games at my parent's house in rural Michigan - it doesn't work.

Fact: It's much riskier for me to play a game there than at my home, where the lag is much less common.
Fact: Mateusz saw the risk of losing byo-yomi periods when it happened to him in his earlier game.

Had Mateusz brought up the lag issue and/or tried to play in an area with a better internet connection, was this situation preventable? This is the part where I have to resort to my own opinion - I think it probably was, and I know a lot of people think it probably wasn't.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #470 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:42 am 
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Did sides agree on any rules for this tournament, besides the very brief principles on the main tournament page?

An example:
EGF tournaments are based on EGF General Tournament Rules
These rules may be overruled by "Particular Tournament Rules", that are specific for a concrete tournament.
These rules include also "Rules of Play" (Ing rules, verbal European-Japanese rules...)

Are there any equivalents of EGF General Tournament Rules or Particular tournament rules determined for Transatlantic tournament?

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #471 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:53 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Had Mateusz brought up the lag issue and/or tried to play in an area with a better internet connection, was this situation preventable? This is the part where I have to resort to my own opinion - I think it probably was, and I know a lot of people think it probably wasn't.


Situation would be easily preventable if referee would be present during the game and tournament rules had anti-lag/crash/disruption policy.Basically if we assume its Surma fault (sth you are suggesting on many pages), the only option for EGF now is cancel match, because they are handicapped.

Also suggesting that Mateusz should play in area with better connctivity assumes that lag occured in Kazan or near.What if lag occured in NY server?Would that change your mind?

You try to suggest that its Matuesz job to prevent lag, but its not.Its organizers job, exactly same as provide functioning clock.

@k0n0
On event side only thing about rules is that they play under japanese rules with 6,5 komi.Nothing more.

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Post #472 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:54 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Had Mateusz brought up the lag issue and/or tried to play in an area with a better internet connection, was this situation preventable? This is the part where I have to resort to my own opinion - I think it probably was, and I know a lot of people think it probably wasn't.


Situation would be easily preventable if referee would be present during the game and tournament rules had anti-lag/crash/disruption policy.Basically if we assume its Surma fault (sth you are suggesting on many pages), the only option for EGF now is cancel match, because they are handicapped.

Also suggesting that Mateusz should play in area with better connctivity assumes that lag occured in Kazan or near.What if lag occured in NY server?Would that change your mind?

You try to suggest that its Matuesz job to prevent lag, but its not.Its organizers job, exactly same as provide functioning clock.

@k0n0
On event side only thing about rules is that they play under japanese rules with 6,5 komi.Nothing more.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #473 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:09 pm 
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AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Also, several ppl commented that state on board should not be considered when delivering ruling.Lets assume that this principle stands.Suppose if in game Lui-Surma, it was Lui who had irreversable huge lead (and same as in real Surma lagged).How now looks decision to declare game void and rematch? AGA pros said that they are sure that rematch would be fair decision, but how the hell i am pretty sure in that situation they would protest strongly every other decision than Lui+time or resume game (maybe with additional time for someone)?
This is an attack on the motives of the AGA team based on a hypothetical about what they would have done in a situation that didn't happen. You could make the same attack on the European team, with equal (i.e. zero) justification.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #474 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Thats how the 3rd law of Newton works. Action is followed by reaction. There would be no case if they would not protest 1st ruling ( based on hypothetical assumption which does not occured). However they wanted to win at all cost, so they protested. That is justification - they showed will to win at all costs, so my reaction ( you call it attack which is plainly invalid) is fully justified.

Anyway i could rewrite my paragraph to this:
"Also, several ppl commented that state on board should not be considered when delivering ruling.Lets assume that this principle stands.Suppose if in game Lui-Surma, it was Lui who had irreversable huge lead (and same as in real Surma lagged).How now looks decision to declare game void and rematch? "

And this argument still stands.If we does not look at board when winning side lagged (or anything beyond his control interrupted game), we should not look at the board when losing side lagged.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #475 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:32 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
I probably have less sympathy for Mateusz than the average person, mostly since he mentioned losing a byo-yomi period in an earlier game. While lag cannot be avoided, it can be mitigated. This is obvious to me, because I've tried playing KGS games at my parent's house in rural Michigan - it doesn't work.

Fact: It's much riskier for me to play a game there than at my home, where the lag is much less common.
Fact: Mateusz saw the risk of losing byo-yomi periods when it happened to him in his earlier game.

The organizers made several mistakes:
  • They chose KGS which counts time on the server's side
  • They were aware of possible lags, but they didn't know a lag may cause kgs timeout (see post of Hajin Lee)
  • They didn't determine any rules concerning lags

You are saying that Mateusz should anticipate organizers' mistakes, and that it was correct that organizers(!) penalized him for not to do it.
I don't think so. In Mateusz's situation it was very natural to suppose that there was no organizers' mistake. It was unlikely organizers would not know how kgs worked. Mateusz could easily suppose organizers wanted to remedy possible problems individually.

Yes, Mateusz could anticipate organizers' mistakes, and "better safe than sorry" is also valid here. He and other players should ask how lags would be solved, before the whole match started. I would load 10% share of the guilt to players, so in this case to both Mateusz and Eric. But this is not enough for any punishment IMHO.

(Also the analogy with a table clock doesn't work: if you get partially non-functional clocks, you know it was not intended by organizers but it was their mistake.)

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #476 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:36 pm 
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AloneAgainstAll wrote:
On event side only thing about rules is that they play under japanese rules with 6,5 komi.Nothing more.
I know, but there might be some rules that are not public.
You can see this tournament doesn't share too much information - see the dispute. Most information is revealed only unofficially.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #477 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:54 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
This is an attack on the motives of the AGA team based on a hypothetical about what they would have done in a situation that didn't happen.
I agree with AloneAgainstAll: so far the motives of the AGA team's appeal seem to be clear: to win at any costs (edit: not "any", better is "high costs" ).
I am respecting it, it is not sportmanlike, but it is an absolutely legal stance of very competitively oriented players:

Park Junghwan once played inside his opponent’s territory in a game using absolute time in order to win the game. This is a competitive mind sport.

I may be mistaken and I am ready to change my view. But so far I didn't read any logical reason for their appeal. It looks their appeal is based on rigid formalism and goes against common sense and sportsmanship.

(I don't say European players are less competitive. We don't know what they would do if sides were reversed)

edit: the motives of the AGA team's appeal


Last edited by k0n0 on Thu May 16, 2019 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #478 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:13 pm 
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AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Anyway i could rewrite my paragraph to this:
"Also, several ppl commented that state on board should not be considered when delivering ruling.Lets assume that this principle stands.Suppose if in game Lui-Surma, it was Lui who had irreversable huge lead (and same as in real Surma lagged).How now looks decision to declare game void and rematch? "

And this argument still stands.If we does not look at board when winning side lagged (or anything beyond his control interrupted game), we should not look at the board when losing side lagged.

If we write and use simple rules, they should be used blindly.

If we want more precise decisions, we must examine all aspects.
Was Mateusz in need of time to calculate at this point? No. His failure to play is probably accidental.

What if at this point Lui was leading by 0,5 point?
Mateusz could try something in lower left corner to make ko, and possibly win some points.
In that case he would need more time to think of some possibility to interrupt opponent's lead.

-----

Overall, I think it would be better to have a referee who could make precedent decisions.
In reality, we are struggling even with ordinary rules, and precedent needs highly skilled referees, and entire referee system of appeal, none of which now exists...

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #479 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:14 pm 
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k0n0 wrote:
...so far the motives of the AGA team seem to be clear: to win at any costs (edit: not "any", better is "high costs" )...


The position of the AGA and its team members is not at all clear. At least one of them has said that 'all' pros - both AGA and EGF - were now in favor of a rematch.

Again, it is not clear: Surma said that three AGA pros protested for certain reasons, and in less than 24 hours an AGA organizer was posting that Surma's recollection was "mostly untrue".

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #480 Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:31 pm 
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Nothing is clear about this situation because everyone is so heated about it. Outrage never leads to clarity and while you can't blame some people for it, you should most definitely not expect them to be clear about the matter.

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