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Who will win?
EGF pros 69%  69%  [ 40 ]
AGA pros 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #641 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:11 pm 
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The backfire effect is the result of motivated reasoning, for which there is a great deal of evidence. :)

By contrast there is the modern, scientific attitude, which is to put your own ideas to the test. And the ancient, Buddhist attitude, cease to cherish opinions. :D

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #642 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 4:06 pm 
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We have had almost sixty pages of debate. It is probably time to get the facts correct. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #643 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 4:57 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
Kirby wrote:
In general, it is difficult to change your opinion about something you care strongly about, even when presented with evidence to the contrary. One form of this is known as the “Backfire Effect” - I posted about this earlier.

The basic idea is, when presented with new research or evidence that is contrary to a belief you agree strong with, you are more likely to reinforce your original belief (“eh, that point has these flaws; their research is insufficient”) than to change your original opinion. I am certainly guilty of this.

I had a faint memory that the studies that suggested the backfire effect may not have replicated.

Great, now I am even more sure that the backfire effect is real.

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Post #644 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:09 pm 
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cease to cherish opinions. :D
:tmbup: including this one

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #645 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:28 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
We have had almost sixty pages of debate. It is probably time to get the facts correct. :lol:


33 pages for me, with my settings :roll: … so … do facts depend on our respective perspective and settings?
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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #646 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:52 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
after a few moves it would have been obvious that KGS was the official timekeeper, whether that had been explicitly stated or not. It was a timed event, and KGS was keeping the time. (Edit: Also, how did Surma, or any other player, know he was in byoyomi? Because KGS told him so.)

KGS was keeping time, but does this make it THE "official" timekeeper? Isn't the whole problem that there was NO official timekeeper, thus no clear answers when things broke? Besides, "KGS" means three different entities here (server, client1 and client2), with different time data (with the players only seeing their own client's one). Things went wrong exactly when KGS failed to synchronize it's three parts with tolerable accuracy.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #647 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:23 pm 
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jann wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
after a few moves it would have been obvious that KGS was the official timekeeper, whether that had been explicitly stated or not. It was a timed event, and KGS was keeping the time. (Edit: Also, how did Surma, or any other player, know he was in byoyomi? Because KGS told him so.)

KGS was keeping time, but does this make it THE "official" timekeeper? Isn't the whole problem that there was NO official timekeeper, thus no clear answers when things broke?


OC, you may construe things that way, but that is really a severe critique of the tournament. A timed event without an official timekeeper? That's really bad. And that critique is not just about the failure of the tournament organizers, but also about the failure of the players, who agreed to play without an official timekeeper.

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Besides, "KGS" means three different entities here (server, client1 and client2), with different time data (with the players only seeing their own client's one). Things went wrong exactly when KGS failed to synchronize it's three parts with tolerable accuracy.


You may know more about KGS software than I, but if Surma's client kept a record of his time usage, where is it? And, BTW, how do you synchronize three different timers? Take their average? My guess is that KGS simply resolves any difference in favor of the server's time. (Edit: Assuming the question even arises. :)) If you know different, that would be interesting information. :)

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #648 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:31 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
It was a timed event, and KGS was keeping the time. (Edit: Also, how did Surma, or any other player, know he was in byoyomi? Because KGS told him so.)
I know only english basics - so I will only speculate what 'timekeeper' may stand for:
'Timekeeper' maybe an instrument (a clock) or a person (for example a guy who announces remaining time in japanese pro tournaments).
'Official timekeeper' - for me it is a person who handles counting completely: for example a guy who announces remaining time in japanese pro tournaments, he must stop counting if a player leaves the playing room during byoyomi time.
Please correct me if this is not true.

A tournament clock is never the 'official timekeeper'. For example if a clock gets broken, an organizer comes and brings a new clock; if tournament rules allow that player's time is stopped when he goes to toilet, then the clock is stopped by players.
If Surma had used the classic clock and the flag had fallen 15 minutes prematurely, you wouldn't had said "how did Surma, know he lost on time? Because the clock told him so."
A clock is a tool only.

IMO common sense says the kgs-clock may be also in a position of a tool only: It cannot take over the role of the 'official timekeeper', because it cannot handle counting completely: for example it cannot handle situations when kgs is broken (server down, packets lost, lag, program bug).

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #649 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:03 pm 
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k0n0 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
It was a timed event, and KGS was keeping the time. (Edit: Also, how did Surma, or any other player, know he was in byoyomi? Because KGS told him so.)
I know only english basics - so I will only speculate what 'timekeeper' may stand for:
'Timekeeper' maybe an instrument (a clock) or a person (for example a guy who announces remaining time in japanese pro tournaments).
'Official timekeeper' - for me it is a person who handles counting completely: for example a guy who announces remaining time in japanese pro tournaments, he must stop counting if a player leaves the playing room during byoyomi time.
Please correct me if this is not true.


KGS may be considered a person, even if not human. Another such use of person is when you play against a bot. The bot may be called a person, even if not human. Edit: A team may also be considered a person, even though made up of more than one human.

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A tournament clock is never the 'official timekeeper'. For example if a clock gets broken, an organizer comes and brings a new clock; if tournament rules allow that player's time is stopped when he goes to toilet, then the clock is stopped by players.
If Surma had used the classic clock and the flag had fallen 15 minutes prematurely, you wouldn't had said "how did Surma, know he lost on time? Because the clock told him so."
A clock is a tool only.


Actually, that statement is good English. For example, in the song lyrics, "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so," even though the Bible is not animate.

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IMO common sense says the kgs-clock may be also in a position of a tool only: It cannot take over the role of the 'official timekeeper', because it cannot handle counting completely: for example it cannot handle situations when kgs is broken (server down, packets lost, lag, program bug).


The role of the official human timekeeper, if there is one, is not to overrule the clock. That role falls to the TD or referee. I does not matter whether the official timekeeper is human or not.

In your example of the clock's flag falling prematurely, you are assuming that the clock is broken. That is a matter for the TD to determine. First, ascertain what happened. The human timekeeper may be a witness, OC.

And there is an important difference in this case. No one is claiming that the KGS server's clock was broken. A better analogy, perhaps, would be that the human timekeeper had a petit mal seizure and failed to press the clock in time. And that he or she had been having seizures all along.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #650 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:42 pm 
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KGS essentially has two timekeeping systems.
The official tournament system, which does not allow any adjustments or interruptions. If you lag, or have a disconnection, the clock keeps ticking.
The normal system, which does allow adjustments.
By using the second one for this tournament, they were implicitly introducing the possibility to allow adjustments, or interruptions, to the clock's timing. No indication was given to the contrary.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #651 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:55 pm 
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Javaness2 wrote:
KGS essentially has two timekeeping systems.
The official tournament system, which does not allow any adjustments or interruptions. If you lag, or have a disconnection, the clock keeps ticking.
The normal system, which does allow adjustments.
By using the second one for this tournament, they were implicitly introducing the possibility to allow adjustments, or interruptions, to the clock's timing. No indication was given to the contrary.


So you are saying that the tournament was run on KGS without using the tournament timekeeping system? Très amusant! :lol:

Edit: Are you saying that Surma could have asked his opponent to give him more time? Well, he didn't did he?

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #652 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:13 am 
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I don't see what is amusing about it.
(Meaning that, why would you want to use the official tournament system. It's so inflexible as to be ruinous.)

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #653 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:26 am 
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Javaness2 wrote:
I don't see what is amusing about it.
(Meaning that, why would you want to use the official tournament system. It's so inflexible as to be ruinous.)


In this case, would it have given a different result?

Besides, is anyone claiming that the referee could not overrule either the loss on time or the loss of a byoyomi period?

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #654 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:42 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Edit: Are you saying that Surma could have asked his opponent to give him more time? Well, he didn't did he?


No reason for him to do so, because his only harmfull lag was during the last period, and you can't ask for more time when the game has already finished. But he asked to resume the game, and that's as close to this as what he could have asked.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #655 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:48 am 
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Tryss wrote:
his only harmfull lag was during the last period
We don't know whether it was
- a lag like in previous situations
- or completely lost packets

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #656 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:49 am 
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The point I am making is that some people have been posing the narrative that we should assume that the server's decision is final. Clearly the spirit of the situation the tournament placed itself is one in which adjustments and interruptions are permissible. If they wished that not to be the case, the organisers had a second option available to them. I don't see anything remotely amusing about that.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #657 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:03 am 
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Javaness2 wrote:
The point I am making is that some people have been posing the narrative that we should assume that the server's decision is final.


I am one who does not suffer fools lightly. That is ridiculous.

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Clearly the spirit of the situation the tournament placed itself is one in which adjustments and interruptions are permissible.


Such as giving your opponent extra time when requested, as Knotwilg indicated is normal. Right?

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #658 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:05 am 
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Tryss wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Edit: Are you saying that Surma could have asked his opponent to give him more time? Well, he didn't did he?


No reason for him to do so, because his only harmfull lag was during the last period, and you can't ask for more time when the game has already finished. But he asked to resume the game, and that's as close to this as what he could have asked.


And you are saying that the KGS timekeeping system would have done that?

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #659 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:19 am 
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In a probably futile attempt to reduce the cross-purpose wittering, Java is referring to a special 'Tournament' KGS game mode used for KGS+ tournaments where, IIRC undos aren't allowed and possibly other stricter differences from regular games like no resume after disconnect. Normal users can't make them. The automated KGS tournament system can, maybe KGS admins can too (Java used to be one). It wouldn't surprise me if Hajin/Natalia and whoever else from the Transatlantic match organisers didn't know about this. But the line of reasoning "because they didn't use KGS tournament mode which disallows undo/resume, this implies that that undo/resume are condoned in this event, and so lag out shouldn't result in time loss" seems just about as valid to me as "let's blame Mateusz for not reporting prior lag so he loses because players have a duty to protect themselves", i.e. pretty crap but good enough for lawyer-style reasoning to justify a decision you want to pick.

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 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #660 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:31 am 
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Indeed. Yet, I think it's an important piece of information for those wishing to argue about what the official rules were. In actuality, I don't think anyone involved had any idea what the rules minutiae actually were [perhaps were not is better], nor did they care what they were. Explaining what the two systems are in detail is very unhelpful though. Shame on you.

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