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EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16420		 Page 33 of 40
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed May 22, 2019 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
jann wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
after a few moves it would have been obvious that KGS was the official timekeeper, whether that had been explicitly stated or not. It was a timed event, and KGS was keeping the time. (Edit: Also, how did Surma, or any other player, know he was in byoyomi? Because KGS told him so.)

KGS was keeping time, but does this make it THE "official" timekeeper? Isn't the whole problem that there was NO official timekeeper, thus no clear answers when things broke?


OC, you may construe things that way, but that is really a severe critique of the tournament. A timed event without an official timekeeper? That's really bad. And that critique is not just about the failure of the tournament organizers, but also about the failure of the players, who agreed to play without an official timekeeper.

Quote:
Besides, "KGS" means three different entities here (server, client1 and client2), with different time data (with the players only seeing their own client's one). Things went wrong exactly when KGS failed to synchronize it's three parts with tolerable accuracy.


You may know more about KGS software than I, but if Surma's client kept a record of his time usage, where is it? And, BTW, how do you synchronize three different timers? Take their average? My guess is that KGS simply resolves any difference in favor of the server's time. (Edit: Assuming the question even arises. :)) If you know different, that would be interesting information. :)
Author:  k0n0 [ Wed May 22, 2019 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Bill Spight wrote:
It was a timed event, and KGS was keeping the time. (Edit: Also, how did Surma, or any other player, know he was in byoyomi? Because KGS told him so.)
I know only english basics - so I will only speculate what 'timekeeper' may stand for:
'Timekeeper' maybe an instrument (a clock) or a person (for example a guy who announces remaining time in japanese pro tournaments).
'Official timekeeper' - for me it is a person who handles counting completely: for example a guy who announces remaining time in japanese pro tournaments, he must stop counting if a player leaves the playing room during byoyomi time.
Please correct me if this is not true.

A tournament clock is never the 'official timekeeper'. For example if a clock gets broken, an organizer comes and brings a new clock; if tournament rules allow that player's time is stopped when he goes to toilet, then the clock is stopped by players.
If Surma had used the classic clock and the flag had fallen 15 minutes prematurely, you wouldn't had said "how did Surma, know he lost on time? Because the clock told him so."
A clock is a tool only.

IMO common sense says the kgs-clock may be also in a position of a tool only: It cannot take over the role of the 'official timekeeper', because it cannot handle counting completely: for example it cannot handle situations when kgs is broken (server down, packets lost, lag, program bug).
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed May 22, 2019 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
k0n0 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
It was a timed event, and KGS was keeping the time. (Edit: Also, how did Surma, or any other player, know he was in byoyomi? Because KGS told him so.)
I know only english basics - so I will only speculate what 'timekeeper' may stand for:
'Timekeeper' maybe an instrument (a clock) or a person (for example a guy who announces remaining time in japanese pro tournaments).
'Official timekeeper' - for me it is a person who handles counting completely: for example a guy who announces remaining time in japanese pro tournaments, he must stop counting if a player leaves the playing room during byoyomi time.
Please correct me if this is not true.


KGS may be considered a person, even if not human. Another such use of person is when you play against a bot. The bot may be called a person, even if not human. Edit: A team may also be considered a person, even though made up of more than one human.

Quote:
A tournament clock is never the 'official timekeeper'. For example if a clock gets broken, an organizer comes and brings a new clock; if tournament rules allow that player's time is stopped when he goes to toilet, then the clock is stopped by players.
If Surma had used the classic clock and the flag had fallen 15 minutes prematurely, you wouldn't had said "how did Surma, know he lost on time? Because the clock told him so."
A clock is a tool only.


Actually, that statement is good English. For example, in the song lyrics, "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so," even though the Bible is not animate.

Quote:
IMO common sense says the kgs-clock may be also in a position of a tool only: It cannot take over the role of the 'official timekeeper', because it cannot handle counting completely: for example it cannot handle situations when kgs is broken (server down, packets lost, lag, program bug).


The role of the official human timekeeper, if there is one, is not to overrule the clock. That role falls to the TD or referee. I does not matter whether the official timekeeper is human or not.

In your example of the clock's flag falling prematurely, you are assuming that the clock is broken. That is a matter for the TD to determine. First, ascertain what happened. The human timekeeper may be a witness, OC.

And there is an important difference in this case. No one is claiming that the KGS server's clock was broken. A better analogy, perhaps, would be that the human timekeeper had a petit mal seizure and failed to press the clock in time. And that he or she had been having seizures all along.
Author:  Javaness2 [ Wed May 22, 2019 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
KGS essentially has two timekeeping systems.
The official tournament system, which does not allow any adjustments or interruptions. If you lag, or have a disconnection, the clock keeps ticking.
The normal system, which does allow adjustments.
By using the second one for this tournament, they were implicitly introducing the possibility to allow adjustments, or interruptions, to the clock's timing. No indication was given to the contrary.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed May 22, 2019 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Javaness2 wrote:
KGS essentially has two timekeeping systems.
The official tournament system, which does not allow any adjustments or interruptions. If you lag, or have a disconnection, the clock keeps ticking.
The normal system, which does allow adjustments.
By using the second one for this tournament, they were implicitly introducing the possibility to allow adjustments, or interruptions, to the clock's timing. No indication was given to the contrary.


So you are saying that the tournament was run on KGS without using the tournament timekeeping system? Très amusant! :lol:

Edit: Are you saying that Surma could have asked his opponent to give him more time? Well, he didn't did he?
Author:  Javaness2 [ Thu May 23, 2019 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
I don't see what is amusing about it.
(Meaning that, why would you want to use the official tournament system. It's so inflexible as to be ruinous.)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu May 23, 2019 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Javaness2 wrote:
I don't see what is amusing about it.
(Meaning that, why would you want to use the official tournament system. It's so inflexible as to be ruinous.)


In this case, would it have given a different result?

Besides, is anyone claiming that the referee could not overrule either the loss on time or the loss of a byoyomi period?
Author:  Tryss [ Thu May 23, 2019 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Bill Spight wrote:
Edit: Are you saying that Surma could have asked his opponent to give him more time? Well, he didn't did he?


No reason for him to do so, because his only harmfull lag was during the last period, and you can't ask for more time when the game has already finished. But he asked to resume the game, and that's as close to this as what he could have asked.
Author:  k0n0 [ Thu May 23, 2019 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Tryss wrote:
his only harmfull lag was during the last period
We don't know whether it was
- a lag like in previous situations
- or completely lost packets
Author:  Javaness2 [ Thu May 23, 2019 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
The point I am making is that some people have been posing the narrative that we should assume that the server's decision is final. Clearly the spirit of the situation the tournament placed itself is one in which adjustments and interruptions are permissible. If they wished that not to be the case, the organisers had a second option available to them. I don't see anything remotely amusing about that.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu May 23, 2019 1:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Javaness2 wrote:
The point I am making is that some people have been posing the narrative that we should assume that the server's decision is final.


I am one who does not suffer fools lightly. That is ridiculous.

Quote:
Clearly the spirit of the situation the tournament placed itself is one in which adjustments and interruptions are permissible.


Such as giving your opponent extra time when requested, as Knotwilg indicated is normal. Right?
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu May 23, 2019 1:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Tryss wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Edit: Are you saying that Surma could have asked his opponent to give him more time? Well, he didn't did he?


No reason for him to do so, because his only harmfull lag was during the last period, and you can't ask for more time when the game has already finished. But he asked to resume the game, and that's as close to this as what he could have asked.


And you are saying that the KGS timekeeping system would have done that?
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu May 23, 2019 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
In a probably futile attempt to reduce the cross-purpose wittering, Java is referring to a special 'Tournament' KGS game mode used for KGS+ tournaments where, IIRC undos aren't allowed and possibly other stricter differences from regular games like no resume after disconnect. Normal users can't make them. The automated KGS tournament system can, maybe KGS admins can too (Java used to be one). It wouldn't surprise me if Hajin/Natalia and whoever else from the Transatlantic match organisers didn't know about this. But the line of reasoning "because they didn't use KGS tournament mode which disallows undo/resume, this implies that that undo/resume are condoned in this event, and so lag out shouldn't result in time loss" seems just about as valid to me as "let's blame Mateusz for not reporting prior lag so he loses because players have a duty to protect themselves", i.e. pretty crap but good enough for lawyer-style reasoning to justify a decision you want to pick.
Author:  Javaness2 [ Thu May 23, 2019 1:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Indeed. Yet, I think it's an important piece of information for those wishing to argue about what the official rules were. In actuality, I don't think anyone involved had any idea what the rules minutiae actually were [perhaps were not is better], nor did they care what they were. Explaining what the two systems are in detail is very unhelpful though. Shame on you.
Author:  Kirby [ Thu May 23, 2019 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Javaness2 wrote:
The point I am making is that some people have been posing the narrative that we should assume that the server's decision is final. Clearly the spirit of the situation the tournament placed itself is one in which adjustments and interruptions are permissible. If they wished that not to be the case, the organisers had a second option available to them. I don't see anything remotely amusing about that.


My view wasn't that the server's decision was necessarily final. Rather, that the initial default "ruling" is a loss by time, per what happened on KGS. Given the situation, this doesn't necessarily seem fair, so we have a referee who can overrule KGS's decision, and make an exception to the normal timekeeping rules. And from the sounds of it, this was initially considered, even to the point of resuming the game.

Through the various information that was (non-publicly and unofficially) discussed, the end decision of the referee was to accept KGS's decision, and not make an exception for Mateusz.

We've been arguing for pages about whether this referee decision was a good one, but I never viewed the argument as one to say that a server decision is final, and not possible to be overridden. The fact that the referee considered overruling the server decision is evidence that it's possible.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu May 23, 2019 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
For those crafting conditions of contest for go tournaments over the internet, a discussion of minutiae may be important. But I did not think that was what was going on here.
Author:  jann [ Thu May 23, 2019 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Bill Spight wrote:
Quote:
Besides, "KGS" means three different entities here (server, client1 and client2), with different time data (with the players only seeing their own client's one). Things went wrong exactly when KGS failed to synchronize it's three parts with tolerable accuracy.

You may know more about KGS software than I, but if Surma's client kept a record of his time usage, where is it? And, BTW, how do you synchronize three different timers? Take their average? My guess is that KGS simply resolves any difference in favor of the server's time.

I don't know KGS internals specifically, only speculating. In rudimentary applications like KGS is supposed to be clients time data is only kept in memory and not recorded permanently (even though that would not be rare in the gaming world), and synchronization with the server is done periodically (with each move for example). So in the given moment the clock should have been frozen at client1 on the -10sec mark, flag fallen at server, and client2 may have shown a time that was only slightly drifted from the server's time. Even if syncronization is done in favor of the server (again, there are other solutions in the gaming world), that is still not automatic and continuous, so there are times when there ARE three different time data concurrently - like in this case.

BTW, one point that may be interesting for those lawyering approaches is whether the connection restored after the 10-20 sec outage or not. This may have also been witnessed by proctor but I never saw a mention of it. And strictly speaking this could make the difference between an undetected disconnection and a timing malfunction. (Not that would make a big difference to reality: a technical problem/failure that was not remedied correctly.)
Author:  Kirby [ Thu May 23, 2019 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
FWIW, lag has been an issue sometimes for first person shooter games, and different semantics are sometimes adopted. For example, you can give advantage to the shooter’s side so if that guy’s client says he got the opponent, it’s true. Or you can give advantage to the other guy so that if it doesn’t seem he was shot on his client, then he wasn’t. Or you can play with lag metrics on the server and have different rules.

This isn’t my field of expertise, so i don’t have all of the details, but i do recall there being various options you c an adopt to make rulings in the face of lag for these real time games.
Author:  Kirby [ Thu May 23, 2019 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Here's an example: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... -90415-3_5
Author:  tneva82 [ Mon May 27, 2019 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Kirby wrote:
FWIW, lag has been an issue sometimes for first person shooter games, and different semantics are sometimes adopted. For example, you can give advantage to the shooter’s side so if that guy’s client says he got the opponent, it’s true. Or you can give advantage to the other guy so that if it doesn’t seem he was shot on his client, then he wasn’t. Or you can play with lag metrics on the server and have different rules.

This isn’t my field of expertise, so i don’t have all of the details, but i do recall there being various options you c an adopt to make rulings in the face of lag for these real time games.


If either client has priority then that opens up cheating so if that route would be here then rather than issues about lag you could easily have issues about cheating accusations. There's a reason why smart clients are discouraged heavily in favour of smart server.
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