Life In 19x19 :: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match

It does not matter if you have kids or not, if you have family or not, these are professionals playing, its their job.

Bill Spight wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Too many Russians are watching porn at night for this to work. We're either going to have to abolish Russian porn or get the players together in one place.

Hmmm. I don't remember netlag watching Russian porn. :mrgreen:

Priorities and Quality of Service networking.

Take care

We seem to be more capable of staying up late than of getting up early. Seasoned travelers report, on the average, that it takes eastbound travelers about 1.5 times as long for westbound travelers to recover )

Iceland looks about right. It is reputed to be very pleasant in the summer.

Or we can just give them all a week's vacation in the eastern US or western Europe before they start playing.

Anyway, if they are professionals, I'd think they can manage to play a prescheduled game at 8/9pm, and make the necessary preparations without whining about it. Pros in Asia travel between countries and have to be on planes on a regular basis - they're not (usually) complaining about a supposed disadvantage.

To be clear, I don't think the European pros are whining about this at all - it's more of some folks on this forum, so I guess I can't use the same standard.

Considering the lack of transparency (ie, the Surma issue), and communication (the tournament's homepage might as well not be there, if rule changes are posted on Facebook; scheduled players and won games were posted well out of time, etc --it's not as if Artem married by surprise, is it?--), I got the deep and distinct impression that amateurs were not a priority.

Ferran wrote:

You can rummage through https://www.usgo.org/board-minutes to find hints of how the event was organised. I think that amateurs, and by that I assume you mean us, the viewing public, were treated quite nicely. After all, we got some good punditry on the games. About other aspects, fair enough, we've said all there is to say there already.

I wonder if this tournament does not have a negative impact and if it would not be better to stop it, in the interest of the development of Go in Europe.
Let me explain:

In Europe, a radically different choice has been made to insist on sportsmanship.

It is in the rules of our Federation, and this allows us to handle cases where the rules are insufficient or the lack of resources of the organization is felt.

A real example:
- Player A forgets if it is his turn to take the last ko or if he has to play a threat.
- Player A asks his opponent B, who does not answer
-Player A resumes the ko, B calls the referee for a forbidden move.
Thanks to the rule of sportsmanship, the referee decides to cancel the forbidden move and continue the game.
We see that this is not at all the logic of the transatlantic tournament, where the player A should have paid more attention to the last move / ask a referee before playing, etc.
For me this change of logic poses several problems:

The first and the least important, but that we can already see is that this implies a very good organization, which is not compatible with the lack of current means: We already see that in this topic: people complain now about the time schedule, which was not the case before(and its logic, if the most important is not what happens on the board,but to decide a winner no matter what, you have to put more attention to this). I'm not even sure that this level of requirement is achievable by an online tournament.

The second point is that these professional players represent us and influence us. So to see them in a tournament where they can not rely on sportsmanship, it's a long-term risk to influence the behavior of go players in Europe, a behavior's change that I do not see as positive, and which could therefore harm the development of Go in Europe

I think this is utter nonsense.
Matches like this are good for European and American Go, but they wont affect the average amateur player and how they play at all

The second point is that these professional players represent us and influence us. So to see them in a tournament where they can not rely on sportsmanship, it's a long-term risk to influence the behavior of go players in Europe

Can anyone explain why 152 in the last game requires White to come back and defend at O5?

Author:	Kirby [ Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Aram wrote: It does not matter if you have kids or not, if you have family or not, these are professionals playing, its their job. I just mention my situation, since I don't think the "optimal time for playing" is universal. Anyway, if they are professionals, I'd think they can manage to play a prescheduled game at 8/9pm, and make the necessary preparations without whining about it. Pros in Asia travel between countries and have to be on planes on a regular basis - they're not (usually) complaining about a supposed disadvantage. To be clear, I don't think the European pros are whining about this at all - it's more of some folks on this forum, so I guess I can't use the same standard.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Ferran wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: Too many Russians are watching porn at night for this to work. We're either going to have to abolish Russian porn or get the players together in one place. Hmmm. I don't remember netlag watching Russian porn. Priorities and Quality of Service networking. Take care It was a joke.

Author:	Ferran [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Joaz Banbeck wrote: We seem to be more capable of staying up late than of getting up early. Seasoned travelers report, on the average, that it takes eastbound travelers about 1.5 times as long for westbound travelers to recover ) I know. It works opposite, for me, somehow. Then again, by and large, what I notice most is getting back home, tired. Quote: Iceland looks about right. It is reputed to be very pleasant in the summer. Or we can just give them all a week's vacation in the eastern US or western Europe before they start playing. Week in Açores or Madeira... Timed right, Artem could have had a paid honeymoon. Or, summer tranch in Iceland, winter in a Portuguese island. I volunteer for record keeping, but I'd need paid travel / accomodation... Take care

Author:	Ferran [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Kirby wrote: Anyway, if they are professionals, I'd think they can manage to play a prescheduled game at 8/9pm, and make the necessary preparations without whining about it. Pros in Asia travel between countries and have to be on planes on a regular basis - they're not (usually) complaining about a supposed disadvantage. Western pros don't have the same social support & understanding. Say, for example, reaching they jobs on monday with cloudy eyes. "You were playing !!!??" Take care

Author:	Ferran [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Bill Spight wrote: It was a joke. Indeed. So was mine. Sorry it didn't come through. Take care.

Life In 19x19 http://lifein19x19.com/

EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16420	Page 39 of 40

Author:	Javaness2 [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Kirby wrote: To be clear, I don't think the European pros are whining about this at all - it's more of some folks on this forum, so I guess I can't use the same standard. It is more of a genuine question than a whine. Perhaps all the EGF pros were happy to play late at night, which would explain very well the chosen schedule. Normally though, you might expect a bit of alternation to accommodate both sides. As Aram says, most competitive mind sport events have rounds which start in the morning or in the afternoon. Anyway, the tournament is over. If it happens again, I suppose a few things will be changed.

Author:	Uberdude [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Here's the game.

Author:	Fenring [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
I wonder if this tournament does not have a negative impact and if it would not be better to stop it, in the interest of the development of Go in Europe. Let me explain: In Europe, a radically different choice has been made to insist on sportsmanship. It is in the rules of our Federation, and this allows us to handle cases where the rules are insufficient or the lack of resources of the organization is felt. A real example: - Player A forgets if it is his turn to take the last ko or if he has to play a threat. - Player A asks his opponent B, who does not answer -Player A resumes the ko, B calls the referee for a forbidden move. Thanks to the rule of sportsmanship, the referee decides to cancel the forbidden move and continue the game. We see that this is not at all the logic of the transatlantic tournament, where the player A should have paid more attention to the last move / ask a referee before playing, etc. For me this change of logic poses several problems: The first and the least important, but that we can already see is that this implies a very good organization, which is not compatible with the lack of current means: We already see that in this topic: people complain now about the time schedule, which was not the case before(and its logic, if the most important is not what happens on the board,but to decide a winner no matter what, you have to put more attention to this). I'm not even sure that this level of requirement is achievable by an online tournament. The second point is that these professional players represent us and influence us. So to see them in a tournament where they can not rely on sportsmanship, it's a long-term risk to influence the behavior of go players in Europe, a behavior's change that I do not see as positive, and which could therefore harm the development of Go in Europe

Author:	Uberdude [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
On the topic of sportsmanship, in one of Ryan Li's recent videos where he comments as he plays online his opponent made an obvious misclick. Rather than playing the best move in the position to punish the misclick he played what he would have in the expected line thus allowing the position to revert to what it would have been without the misclick. So let's not assume there is such a strict dichotomy in transatlantic sportsmanship. And if the example above refers to what I think B was Russian.

Author:	Fenring [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
I'm not judging sportsmanship among NA players, but principles who applied in this tournament. So dichotomy for me is in the official tournament rules of each federation, not behavior of players. (and Ryan Li is a part of the minority who did not follow the majority of the NA Team). So i don't see the link between your answer and what i said.

Author:	Ferran [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Considering the lack of transparency (ie, the Surma issue), and communication (the tournament's homepage might as well not be there, if rule changes are posted on Facebook; scheduled players and won games were posted well out of time, etc --it's not as if Artem married by surprise, is it?--), I got the deep and distinct impression that amateurs were not a priority. Maybe, if I squint and look at it funny, I can see it as a well intentioned marketing hook, trying to entice NEW players by showing them what's up with go (be famous! Get rich!) in the West. But as a whole... It really feels like the organizers had an ivory tower moment. I do hope I'm way wrong, but, really, I currently have no interest at all in joining EGF [], and I would think that was NOT the intended outcome. Take care. [] I do have other issues with that, but this tournament is sort of a poster child

Author:	Javaness2 [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Ferran wrote: Considering the lack of transparency (ie, the Surma issue), and communication (the tournament's homepage might as well not be there, if rule changes are posted on Facebook; scheduled players and won games were posted well out of time, etc --it's not as if Artem married by surprise, is it?--), I got the deep and distinct impression that amateurs were not a priority. You can rummage through https://www.usgo.org/board-minutes to find hints of how the event was organised. I think that amateurs, and by that I assume you mean us, the viewing public, were treated quite nicely. After all, we got some good punditry on the games. About other aspects, fair enough, we've said all there is to say there already.

Author:	jlt [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Personally I enjoyed watching this tournament and I hope it will continue. I am glad that Europe won, not only because I live in Europe but also because if AGA had won, then its victory would have been contested because of the Surma incident. Now the rules are clear, they may be strict but I don't think they will have any influence on real-life tournaments, since the particular rules concern issues that only arise in online tournaments (lags, misclicks).

Author:	Ferran [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Javaness2 wrote: Ferran wrote: Considering the lack of transparency (ie, the Surma issue), and communication (the tournament's homepage might as well not be there, if rule changes are posted on Facebook; scheduled players and won games were posted well out of time, etc --it's not as if Artem married by surprise, is it?--), I got the deep and distinct impression that amateurs were not a priority. You can rummage through https://www.usgo.org/board-minutes to find hints of how the event was organised. I think that amateurs, and by that I assume you mean us, the viewing public, were treated quite nicely. After all, we got some good punditry on the games. About other aspects, fair enough, we've said all there is to say there already. Precisely. If I rummage, I can find hints. That's not the way to conduct good PR. And I specifically mentioned the Surma incident, for which there was even less. Sure, people here (and, I assume, other places), kept dropping bits of info (they'll meet there, decide what, apparently there is...), but AGA, EGF and tournament's homepages were completely silent. The youtube channel is still on game 3! It's 2 months late!! So, yes, I do affirm amateur players are not much on the radar; I'm not assuming it's intentional, but... Take care.

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Author:	Leon [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Fenring wrote: I wonder if this tournament does not have a negative impact and if it would not be better to stop it, in the interest of the development of Go in Europe. Let me explain: In Europe, a radically different choice has been made to insist on sportsmanship. It is in the rules of our Federation, and this allows us to handle cases where the rules are insufficient or the lack of resources of the organization is felt. A real example: - Player A forgets if it is his turn to take the last ko or if he has to play a threat. - Player A asks his opponent B, who does not answer -Player A resumes the ko, B calls the referee for a forbidden move. Thanks to the rule of sportsmanship, the referee decides to cancel the forbidden move and continue the game. We see that this is not at all the logic of the transatlantic tournament, where the player A should have paid more attention to the last move / ask a referee before playing, etc. For me this change of logic poses several problems: The first and the least important, but that we can already see is that this implies a very good organization, which is not compatible with the lack of current means: We already see that in this topic: people complain now about the time schedule, which was not the case before(and its logic, if the most important is not what happens on the board,but to decide a winner no matter what, you have to put more attention to this). I'm not even sure that this level of requirement is achievable by an online tournament. The second point is that these professional players represent us and influence us. So to see them in a tournament where they can not rely on sportsmanship, it's a long-term risk to influence the behavior of go players in Europe, a behavior's change that I do not see as positive, and which could therefore harm the development of Go in Europe I think this is utter nonsense. Matches like this are good for European and American Go, but they wont affect the average amateur player and how they play at all

Author:	Fenring [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Leon wrote: I think this is utter nonsense. Matches like this are good for European and American Go, but they wont affect the average amateur player and how they play at all You say its good for european Go(in what?) but at same time no affect the average player? its a contradiction,no? If this games doesn't affect average amateur player, better not to play them, considering money and energy/time it involve. Indeed, if professional don't influence average player, would be in the interest of our federations to stop the pro system,no? Now what to say to a player who is fake thinking because he notice his opponent forgot to hit the clock? "i can use my time as i want, i respect the rules, hit the clock is my opponent responsibility,even more than internet connection, so it is normal behavior "

Author:	jann [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Fenring wrote: The second point is that these professional players represent us and influence us. So to see them in a tournament where they can not rely on sportsmanship, it's a long-term risk to influence the behavior of go players in Europe A bit of such may be possible but unlikely significant. IMO in the end, good sportsmanship and good human behaviour in general does not come from following examples or expecting similar behaviour in return.

Author:	Jujube [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
The viewers on twitch.tv averaged between 2,000 and 5,000+ during the match. I believe there were over 10,000 during an EGF event earlier this year. There were many questions being asked in the chat like "what are the rules" or "where can I play this game". In my opinion, one of the benefits of having tournaments like this is outreach. You may even go as far as to say that we are tapping a market of likely younger people who already enjoy playing games. Maybe some of them will even visit a local club in the future.

Author:	hyperpape [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Can anyone explain why 152 in the last game requires White to come back and defend at O5?

Author:	Uberdude [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
hyperpape wrote: Can anyone explain why 152 in the last game requires White to come back and defend at O5? 152 doesn't require o5. 152 was probably a timesuji trying to decide if o5 or taking gote at b5 was better. o5 is a prophylactic move, making it harder for black to peep at o6 and harass the connection between m4/o3 and the m7/o7 stones above. I was actually rather surprised Ilya didn't try something in that area before. It could be because it's difficult and whilst the best sequence in the area would almost certainly give black some profit, the wrong sequence could backfire so he just left it alone for now. So o5 was a good move, the trade is quite ok for white, though the next trade of ignoring c6 was perhaps less good and just blocking at d6 is ok. However, when black later peeped at o6 white just connected at n7 which was a bit sad to not be able to resist with o6, but that was because he'd made the 152 push losing a liberty thus making the cut atari (after black n11 sente) and resistance problematic. If Ryan had played another thick endgame move at o4 instead of h16 later then I think he might have won, he's usually good at finding the thick moves for good yose (mentions it sometimes in his videos), but was unlucky to miss it this time.