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 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #21 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:49 am 
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In AI games I see some crude and unpleasant looking moves, but mainly I see shocking beauty. You see some incredible sabaki play and some wonderful and sometimes shocking treatment of aji. some of these tenuki plays seem to be so wonderfully calculated in terms of the risk and reward.

Knotwilg wrote:
In fact, I have found bot play easier to interpret than games of Go Seigen or Lee Sedol


Absolutely agree with this.
Lee Sedol in particular - I've felt convinced before that even Lee Sedol does not understand the moves of Lee Sedol.

And back on topic:
Marcel Grünauer wrote:
Lee Sedol 9p has announced his retirement.

This is really sad.
Maybe it's quite reasonable too, given that what I've loved about looking through some of his games is the sharpness and that may no longer be so special now there are so many sharp young pros.

Lee Sedol via Kirby's rough translation wrote:
.. On top of that, more and more, it seems that my matches with Ke Jie 9d haven't had any meaning.

I realise that this is right after the exhibition match, but still, seems odd that he would name Ke Jie personally when talking about his decision to retire.

I remember watching this game between the two players when they played in late 2017. This was after AlphaGo had introduced some interesting ideas that pro players were experimenting with, but before pros had really developed their concepts as I feel they have now.
For me, at the time, something unexpected happened in every corner and there are frequent surprising developments (for an sdk).


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 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #22 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:14 pm 
Honinbo

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MikeKyle wrote:
I've felt convinced before that even Lee Sedol does not understand the moves of Lee Sedol.


;) ;) ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #23 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:03 pm 
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On the topic of Lee's memorable games, there was this miraculous comeback some years ago against Kong Jie (who was probably world #2 then) following a woopsy death with scant compensation leaving him far behind. But he keeps on fighting and complicating the game and turns it around.



And then this one from the same time just after his 2009-10 hiatus, I call it the 2-space high pincer workshop. Lee is black vs Chang Hao in the BC card cup final.


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 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #24 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:32 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Roughly translated:

This year feels really different. I started playing go when I was 6, and in 1995 I became a pro. It looks like this year is the last year that I'll be active as a competitor. On top of that, more and more, it seems that my matches with Ke Jie 9d haven't had any meaning.


Thanks for the translation!
What does the "it seems that my matches with Ke Jie 9d haven't had any meaning" mean exactly - do you think he is disappointed about losing to Ke Jie more often than winning, or is he talking about something else (such as, they don't meet in important matches anymore? or... does he dislike Ke Jie's AI-style nowadays :-) )

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #25 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:25 am 
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moha wrote:
macelee wrote:
Ke Jie's opening was like a ruthless robot (following Fine Art's suggestions pretty closely, including some strange-looking second-line moves)
He was rumoured to have personal access to Fine Art, wasn't he? I guess humans can learn to do many things efficiently, not just playing go but also predicting a certain player's moves.


Is FineArt's playing style different than LeelaZero? I don't think it makes a difference nowadays for a pro to have exclusive access to FineArt - since both FineArt and LeelaZero are stronger than top pros, so Go AI has been "democratized".

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #26 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:40 am 
Oza

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Quote:
What does the "it seems that my matches with Ke Jie 9d haven't had any meaning" mean exactly - do you think he is disappointed about losing to Ke Jie more often than winning, or is he talking about something else (such as, they don't meet in important matches anymore? or... does he dislike Ke Jie's AI-style nowadays :-) )


Sorin: The score between Yi Se-tol and Ke Jie is now 5-13 (5-14 if you count pair go), and for the past couple of years and more they have met usually only by courtesy of specially arranged exhibition games. Add to that the fact that Yi had just experienced his 36th birthday and Ke is only 22. Ke also rubbed salt in the wound (no doubt unintentionally) by telling the press he grew up studying Yi's games.

And all that is within the framework that Yi is an emotional rollercoaster kind of guy. Which is why he didn't actually say he has retired. He said he is planning to make this year his last but he hasn't quite decided whether it will then be a temporary or permanent retirement.

At heart, just a bad case of tempus fugit, I suspect. Been there, done that. Like quite a few on this forum. You're next, uberdude! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #27 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:49 am 
Honinbo

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sorin wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Roughly translated:

This year feels really different. I started playing go when I was 6, and in 1995 I became a pro. It looks like this year is the last year that I'll be active as a competitor. On top of that, more and more, it seems that my matches with Ke Jie 9d haven't had any meaning.


Thanks for the translation!
What does the "it seems that my matches with Ke Jie 9d haven't had any meaning" mean exactly - do you think he is disappointed about losing to Ke Jie more often than winning, or is he talking about something else (such as, they don't meet in important matches anymore? or... does he dislike Ke Jie's AI-style nowadays :-) )


It is difficult for me to say more from the single quote. I can make my own interpretation, but I'd be making some assumptions. I agree with John that Lee Sedol is somewhat temperamental (that's my opinion, not an objective fact) - and it's true that he didn't actually say that he was retired, just that it looks like this will be his last year.

In any case, I think it's somewhat safe to say from the quote that Lee Sedol isn't satisfied with his recent matches against Ke Jie. To say more, I'd be extrapolating.

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #28 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:00 am 
Honinbo

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Another article from a couple of days ago (http://m.tygem.com/news/news_view.html? ... &seq=32539) has another quote:

Quote:
은퇴를 암시하는 것이냐는 질문에는 “아직 완벽히 정한 것은 아니지만 올해를 마지막으로 휴직이나 은퇴를 고려 중이다. 휴직은 어설픈 느낌이 있지만, 완전 은퇴를 하면 돌아오기 힘들 것이다. 은퇴를 하면 나중에 바둑을 못 두게 될 수 있기 때문에 여러 방면에서 고려 중이다.”라고 말했다.


And my quick translation:
Quote:
When asked whether he was going to seriously try hard to retire, he replied, "It's still not perfectly decided, but I'm considering whether to take a leave of absence or retire by the end of this year. Taking a leave of absense feels kind of lame, but if I comletely retire, it'll be difficult to return. If I retire, later on it'll get to be where I'm not able to play. Because of that, I'm still considering various angles."


So maybe he's still thinking things over a little bit. Not really sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #29 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:31 am 
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Remember that in 2013, Lee Sedol said he would retire within three years.

forum/viewtopic.php?p=133280#p133280

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol 9p retires
Post #30 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:42 pm 
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sorin wrote:
moha wrote:
He was rumoured to have personal access to Fine Art, wasn't he? I guess humans can learn to do many things efficiently, not just playing go but also predicting a certain player's moves.

Is FineArt's playing style different than LeelaZero? I don't think it makes a difference nowadays for a pro to have exclusive access to FineArt - since both FineArt and LeelaZero are stronger than top pros, so Go AI has been "democratized".

I think I disagree with this, for pros at least. There are significant strength differences between go bots, and especially as a study tool for a pro I think that half stone could matter. For playing styles I'd guess the differences are even larger.

I have no real idea about Fine Art (apart from its strength), but I think joseki preferences, evaluation balances, opinion on certain lines, even W advantage on an empty board are viewed differently. LZ and Elf also seem to differ, and I'd guess even LZ would differ from itself after a new run from scratch. Selfplay training can reinforce and amplify (initially random) tiny NN preferences. The extent of ladder understanding can also make a huge difference (not for misplaying a ladder move at the top, but for the accuracy of searches where ladders arise several moves deeper).

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