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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #81 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:48 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
Park Yeonghun can give Tanaka a run for her money, though admittedly over the course of 3 not 1 moves.


If I could choose, I'd rather make Park's mistakes than Tanaka's. The game has a different "feel".

Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #82 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:34 am 
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Has Nihon Kiin said anything about Sumire's #$%^&*? Strange that this area hasn't been covered, given all the attention paid to Sumire's other minutiae. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Crude phrase removed. -JB
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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #83 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:46 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
I think of TheCannyOnion more as a pet chihuahua, kept for the amusement of its predictable yapping anytime Iyama or Sumire is mentioned, than a deceitful troll. :)


Yapping chihuahuas are fine, but more annoying when they poop in your frontyard.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #84 Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:40 pm 
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Removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #85 Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:44 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:

But what I find telling is that in all the CJK countries the pro organisations have a remarkably good (?perfect) record in predicting which kids will be the future stars, even many years before they make the grade (we can exclude the diplomatic diplomas given to westerners, of course). On that basis alone I would be confident that Sumire is on track to become at least one of the strongest female pros.



That's great. Then why didn't the Kiin grant Sumire that Shodan diploma when she actually makes the grade? Why the premature and highly irregular certification, bypassing the pro exam, which is the way vast majority of pros become pros?

I'm a bit of a traditionalist on this particular matter, so I find Sumire's promotion and the subsequent coverage a bit nauseating, for a lack of better word.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #86 Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:27 am 
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ewan1971 wrote:
That's great. Then why didn't the Kiin grant Sumire that Shodan diploma when she actually makes the grade? Why the premature and highly irregular certification, bypassing the pro exam, which is the way vast majority of pros become pros?

I'm a bit of a traditionalist on this particular matter, so I find Sumire's promotion and the subsequent coverage a bit nauseating, for a lack of better word.


Well, there IS a tradition of irregularity in Japanese Go. IF you want a "refresher" check the history of THE Meijin, or that of the precursors to the Kiin. Or the birth of the Kansai Kiin. Or...

While I do share part of your feelings regarding Sumire-sensei, Japanese rules are... more like guidelines, in a very Pratchett-Weatherwax sense. If there's enough of a reason or a consensus, a rule is discarded as it was never there, then immediately put back in place. For example, these rules are discarded quite often when dealing with interested foreigners. And I suspect that the fact that she was made SHOdan is also an important part of the mindset. That the Japanese language does not have "First" dan and instead has "small" dan, speaks volumes.

My gut feeling of wrongness is there, but, then, Japan does have a tradition of putting impossibly young people in the spotlight *as part* of their training.

Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #87 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:12 am 
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Sumire won a game in the female Kisei prelims.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #88 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:37 am 
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Ferran wrote:
That the Japanese language does not have "First" dan and instead has "small" dan, speaks volumes.


Well, the sho in shodan (初段) actually does mean "first". :)

On another note, Nakamura is now 2-1 in her official matches. That's pretty good for someone who supposedly has no business being a pro. Did she just get lucky two times in a row?


Last edited by Zenit on Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #89 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:17 am 
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Kim Hyun Jung (or Jong) is 982th out of 1015 on goratings, and rated 2641 Elo:

https://www.goratings.org/en/players/1013.html

so she is one of the weakest professionals, certainly weaker than the European pros. It's hard at the moment to compare Nakamura Sumire's strength to European pros, we will know when she plays against 2800-2900 Elo rated players.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #90 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:28 pm 
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Zenit wrote:
On another note, Nakamura is now 2-1 in her official matches. That's pretty good for someone who supposedly has no business being a pro. Did she just get lucky two times in a row?


I am actually finding the discussion strange. Particularly the arguement that she shouldn't be considered of pro rank because she is only beating weaker pros!

I suspect that she is only the first in what will be a new process. The TRADITION was that regardless of strength as a child, one still had to go through a particular traditional student system. I think the wisdom of that is being rethought, and she is just the first of what will be many << selected for this "honor" because an attractive child for the break with tradition.

WHY? Why do I think it a good idea for those (few) who show such strength at an early age that it is obvious they will not only be pro strength but possibly well up in the ranks by the time in their later teens. Because it limits/defines their education too soon. We don't KNOW that she will end up as a go professional (I'm not talking about rank)

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #91 Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:10 am 
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I was interested to see the latest report and pro opinion on Sumire after her record-breaking exploit of becoming the youngest ever player in Japan to enter the main even of a tournament. She won through both the B and A Preliminaries of the Women's Kisei at age 10 years 5 months. This was a long way ahead of previous record holder Fujisawa Rina (13 years 5 months). And before the Cackling Carrot claims she had an easy ride, I expect Rina had the same rites of passage.

Sumire is off for 2 weeks summer holiday in Korea, playing fast games, and will not appear in the main Women's Kisei until September/October. But we have apparently already seen some significant changes.

Physically she has lost quite a bit more puppy fat and now has a disarmingly confident smile and pose, which I could easily imagine striking dread into the hearts of opponents, but which certainly does no harm to her public popularity. 40 reporters from 20 media organisations turned up for game with Kimu Hyonjon. At the press conference, Kimu said her opponent made some great moves in the middle game and showed she is both fast and accurate in her reading. In fact the most important feature of this game may have been the fact that Sumire did not cave in when she fell behind. She has learned to fight back.

Referee Yamashiro Hiroshi 9-dan was impressed, too. He noted that the content of the recent game was much better than her first official game, and as the next step he was looking forward to seeing how she plays in games with long time limits.

Sumire is also fast learning the language of pro go: "I was happy I was able to win. I will also strive to do my best in the main event." And not yet 11! Reminds me of Honinbo Shusai when he was young, practising his calligraphy to be ready for the day when he signed fans for fans.

The image of Sumire below is from the entrance to the Nihon Ki-in shop in Yurakucho. Beyond that she is not being exploited too overtly for publicity there. Her name was used to sell some flim-flam for kids such as badges. The main publicity focus is still very much on Iyama.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #92 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:51 am 
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Zenit wrote:
Well, the sho in shodan (初段) actually does mean "first". :


My apologies. I'd mixed mental files. I still find it curious that 初 seems to mean (do correct me again if I'm still off) first as in "the beginning of" and not "number one". Discard if it doesn't feel useful, it works for me (then, sometimes, my brain mixes things and... viola :oops: )

In penance, I hope this works:



Take care


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #93 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:39 am 
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This next weekend, against Fujisawa Rina, at Hiroshima:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YakcDGPD9xw

Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #94 Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:28 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
She won through both the B and A Preliminaries of the Women's Kisei at age 10 years 5 months. This was a long way ahead of previous record holder Fujisawa Rina (13 years 5 months).


Who were opponents were in the preliminaries B and A? gotoeveryone doesn't show these preliminaries, so it's hard for me to find out information about them

John Fairbairn wrote:
And before the Cackling Carrot claims she had an easy ride, I expect Rina had the same rites of passage.


Good one :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #95 Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:06 am 
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Ferran wrote:
This next weekend, against Fujisawa Rina, at Hiroshima:


It's already there 3h12m. Fujisawa-Nakamura is the first 90 minutes, introduction and commentary included.

Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #96 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:54 am 
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Sumire has been quite active this summer, with exhibition games. Although she lost to Fujisawa Rina (but played well), she beat fellow 1-dan Hane Ayaka (daughter of Gosei Hane Naoki) in the Hankyu Cool of the Evening Festival. She was dressed in a kimono for this.

However, the highlight was a pair go game which set the record, by a LONG way, for the youngest foursome in a pro game. Billed as the Young Stars Dream Match at the World Pair Go in Tokyo, Sumire, 10, partnered Fukuoka Kotaro, 13. Their opponents from China were Wu Yiming and Hu Zihao, both 12. It was a close game, lost by an endgame blunder by the Japanese. But perhaps the most interesting revelation was that Sumire and Kotaro had practised for the match by playing no fewer than 20 pair go games.

Sumire didn't wear kimono for this, but she had to wear an ID card round her neck. Japan's most famous kid needed to be tagged like farm stock??? No doubt there's some job's worth organiser planning drug tests for sugar rushes in these kids before too long.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #97 Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:48 pm 
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OGS is relaying a match between her and Furuta Naoyoshi 4p in the Judan prelims.

https://online-go.com/review/414499

Take care.

EDIT:

Game's over. Untrimmed sgf from OGS:


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #98 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:45 am 
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(from https://www.sankei.com/life/photos/1909 ... 21-p1.html)


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #99 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:05 am 
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It must be hard, putting effort to become shodan at 27 (and wasn't that the old age limit? Not sure), putting effort to reach 2nd dan (7 years) and 4th (9 years after 3rd), and having a newcomer win like that when you're in your fifties. I can sympathise.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #100 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:16 am 
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There aren't many data on Furuta Naoyoshi on goratings, https://www.goratings.org/en/players/1625.html

it seems he has never been very strong or active. Nevertheless, this shows that Sumire can beat weak professionals consistently, which is good for her.

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