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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #281 Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:27 am 
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Oooops! Sorry!

I could nearly feel my head away from my body! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #282 Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:18 pm 
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The heroine of this thread winning against Umezawa / Yoshihara Yukari in Female Honinbo. In her first April win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3LvpxciK8I

I am totally surprised to find Nihon Kiin livestreaming on youtube.

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Post #283 Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:48 am 
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Sumire had a big week, with 3 important wins. The 1st win on Apr 12 earned her the right to play in main Female Saikyo tournament, while her other two wins were in the major mixed tournament, so they count for promotion by wins and prize money. April updates are in blue.

April games:
    [1] Apr 1: Defeated Yoshihara Yukari(6p) in Female Honimbo 40
    [2] Apr 5: Defeated Okada Yumiko 6p in Meijin 47.
    [3] Apr 12: Defeated Hiromi Mizuno 5p in Female Saikyo 6
    [4] Apr 14: Defeated Hara Masakazu 3p in Kisei 46
    [5] Apr 15: Defeated SAKAGUCHI, Ryuzo, 9p in Judan 60


Here is a summary of all her tournaments (she is out of tournaments with black names). She is still active in tournaments with red names:

Major tournaments (eligible for prize money rule and promotion by wins):
  • Kisei 46 - Defeated Ha Youngil (6p, 35 years old, rating 3040, #530) on Feb 4, Tajima Shingo (但馬 慎吾, 6p, 2879, #805) on March 11 and
    Hara Masakazu (原 正和 3p, 23 yrs, 3059, #495) on Apr 14. Will play TORII, Yuta (3p, 28yrs, 2964, #668) in last game of prelims. If she wins, she will make it to C league, which would be a huge achievement.
    See West block 3 in https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/kisei/046.html.
  • Meijin 47 - Defeated Okada Yumiko 6p on Apr 5. Will play NOBUTA, Shigehito (信田 成仁六段 6p, 60 yrs) next. See Tokyo 16 in https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/meijin/047.html
  • Honimbo 77 - eliminated on Dec 3, 2020. Honimbo 78 should start around Oct 2021?.
  • Oza 69 - eliminated in Oct 2020. Oza 70 should start in March 2021
  • Tengen 48 - Will play Atti Tormanen (1p) in 1st round. See Tokyo 23 https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/tengen/048.html
  • Gosei 47 - Defeated Rafif Shidqi Fitrah (1p, 18 yrs) in first round of qualifying on March 29. Will play Ryoya Takeshita (竹下 凌矢) 1p next. See Tokyo 4.
  • Judan 60 - Defeated Minematsu Matsaki (6p, 2698, 57yr old) in first round of qualifying on Jan 21, 2021 and SAKAGUCHI, Ryuzo, 9p on Apr 15. Will play GOTO, Shungo (8p, 2979, #645) next. See Kansai/Chubu frame 8 https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/jyudan/060.html

Mixed tournaments counting towards promotion by wins:
  • Kiryama (aka Agon) 28 - defeated Yasufumi Tahara (7p, 46yrs, 2714, #1000) on Mar 1st and MATSUBARA Taisei (6p, 49yrs, 2772, #948) on Mar 15 but lost to Koyama Kuya (4p, 24 yrs, 3171, #332) that same day. So she is out of Kiryama 28. Kiryama 29 should start Feb 2022.
  • Ryusei 30 - Defeated Araki Issei 4P on June 29, 2020 in final of prelim B. Lost to Nakano Shoya 1p in Prelim A. Ryusei 31 should start in April-Jun 2021?
  • Hiroshima 15 (Young Carp). Eliminated in Nov 2020. Hiroshima 16 should start Sept 2021.
  • Okage (Thanks Cup) 11 - eliminated on Apr 6, 2020 by Xie Yimmin. Okage 12 should start in March 2021
  • SGW Nakajima 3 - did not participate? SGW 4 should start in Aug 2021
  • Globis Cup 8 should have started Jan 2021

Women-only or other tournaments not counting for promotion:
  • Shinjin (King of New Stars) 46 - eliminated in Nov 16, 2020. Shinjin 47 should start in Nov 2021.
  • Okan (Crown) Cup - Not eligible (seems to be for Nagoya branch only).
  • Kansai Go open 1: eliminated in Nov 2020 in the semifinal of class C (this was in main tournament). Kansai Open 2 might start Sept 2021 (but she might not be eligible to play anymore).
  • Wakatake 5: Lost to Hiroki Muramatsu 6p in first round on Nov 29, 2020. Her opponent eventually ended up in 3rd place. It seems to be Kansai only, so she will probably not play in it next year.
  • Female Honimbo 40: Defeated Saeka Iwata 1p on Jan 25, 2021, Takao Mari (髙雄 茉莉, 1p, 19 yrs) on Feb 18 in prelims. Defeated Yukari Yoshihara (吉原由香里 6p 48 yrs) on April 1st in first round. Will play Nyu Eiko (3p) next. See https://gotoeveryone.k2ss.info/news/jp/fhoninbo/40.
  • Female Meijin 32: Defeated Akiko Tsukuda 5p (2741) on Jan 7, 2021 but lost to Ueno Asami in last qualifying game on the same day. Female Meijin 33 should start in Nov 2021?
  • Female Aizu (aka Tachiaoi) 8: Defeated Chiharu Miyamoto 1p on Dec 17, Fumiko Sakakibara 6p on Jan 18, 2021, Akane Tatsuni (辰己 茜, 3p, 38yrs) on Feb 11 and Wang Jing Yi (王 景怡, 3p, 35yrs, 2769, #934) on March 18 in last qualifying game, so she has made it to the main
    tournament. Will play Konishi Kazuko (8p, 49yrs) in 1st round. See https://gotoeveryone.k2ss.info/news/jp/tachiaoi/8
  • Female Kisei 24 - Lost in 2nd round of main tournament to Aoki Kikuyo 8p on Oct 26. Kisei 25 should start July 2021.
  • Female Senko/Saikyo 6: Defeated Tamura Chiaki (3p, 42yrs, 2648, #1029) in 2nd round of qualifying on Mar 10th and Hiromi Mizuno 5p (水野 弘美, 53yrs) in last qualifying game on Apr 12, so she made it to the main tournament. See West 4 of https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/senko/006.html

My calculations show her results to be as follows:
In 2021: 18-2 (#2 in overall 2021 Japanese ranking by wins on gotoeveryone web site).
In 2020: 21-17
Overall: 58-28
Go rating: 2952, #692

Promotion to 3p: 4 wins (40 required):
  • Gosei 47: 1 win (ongoing)
  • Meijin 47: 1 win (ongoing)
  • Kisei 46: 1 win (ongoing)
  • Judan 60: 1 win (ongoing)


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #284 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:14 pm 
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Sumire has been playing with the Japanese national squad in an internet match against Taiwan. In two rounds played so far, both Sumire and Ichiriki Ryo scored 2-0. Overall the match score was 3-3 in both rounds. Sumire beat Yang Zixuan 4-dan (female, 18) and Yu Lijun 3-dan (female, 21). Further rounds will be played at 2-monthly intervals, but maybe with different players.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #285 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:39 pm 
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Sumire defeated Nobuta Shigehito in the #47 Meijin prelims.

Next is Cho Sonjin. I wish it was another Cho ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #286 Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:20 pm 
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pajaro wrote:
Next is Cho Sonjin. I wish it was another Cho ;-)


It looks like she has to win one more before Cho. She plays the winner of Komatsu Hideki vs Tanaka Yuki? Then Cho Sonjin, then Michael Redmond if she keeps winning.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #287 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:03 am 
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botija wrote:
It looks like she has to win one more before Cho.


You are right. My mistake.

If she ends up playing Michael Redmond, perhaps he will make a video. That would be nice. But there is still a long way before that.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #288 Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:04 am 
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Her game against Goto Shungo in the 60th Judan was up on Tygem, not that common an occurrence for Japanese games outside of big titles finals (and even then...). I guess Sumire's results interest the Korean public too.

Here is the game (possible transcription errors mine).


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #289 Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:44 am 
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Quote:
I guess Sumire's results interest the Korean public too.


Don't forget that Sumire has studied in Korea and speaks some Korean.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #290 Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:45 am 
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19 wins for only 2 losses :o :o
90% of victory, really impressive, I hope she keeps it up!

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #291 Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:48 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
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I guess Sumire's results interest the Korean public too.


Don't forget that Sumire has studied in Korea and speaks some Korean.
True I had forgotten about it. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #292 Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:42 am 
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Shenoute wrote:
Her game against Goto Shungo in the 60th Judan was up on Tygem, not that common an occurrence for Japanese games outside of big titles finals (and even then...). I guess Sumire's results interest the Korean public too.

Here is the game (possible transcription errors mine).



I found this game interesting.

Nowadays, it seems that AI style is everywhere, all players are playing 3-3 invasions early and so on. And from what I got from Michael Redmond's videos "AlphaGo vs. the world", it seems that AI style is territory oriented. Yes, there are different AI, AlphaGo itself has evolved,... But, even so, in this game black (the younger player) won with a big territory. I don't think it was the plan from the beggining, it was not Takemiya style (tm). From my point of view, the game just developed in that way. But the result was different to other games I have watched lately.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #293 Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 12:40 am 
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Sumire has moved into the challengers' semi-finals of the ladies' 8th Aidu Chuo Hospital Tachiaoi Cup, having defeated Konishi Kauko 8-dan. She will now face Nyu Eiko 3-dan. If she makes it through to the final, she will be up against either Ueno Asami or Kato Chie.

Sumire's quarter-final game was one of the queerest pro games I've ever seen - almost certainly the most one-sided. But not in the usual sense. In this case it was because 146 out of the first 156 moves were down side of the board, and mostly on the edges. On top of that, several of the moves made me blink in disbelief. Here is the one-sided portion - and even at this stage this side is still far from finished, with huge sacrifices by Sumire.

Remember those bleating voices that said Sumire shouldn't have been allowed to become a pro by recommendation?


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #294 Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:58 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Remember those bleating voices that said Sumire shouldn't have been allowed to become a pro by recommendation?


Yes, they have disappeared.

But I have been thinking about this, that perhaps we misunderstand the real reason WHY this was done. Obviously, in spite of how her strength was (correctly) judged, one might have thought a short time as an insei wouldn't have hurt.

Wouldn't have hurt HER.

But what would it have done to the confidence of her fellow insei?

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #295 Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:08 am 
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Mike Novack wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
Remember those bleating voices that said Sumire shouldn't have been allowed to become a pro by recommendation?


Yes, they have disappeared.

But I have been thinking about this, that perhaps we misunderstand the real reason WHY this was done. Obviously, in spite of how her strength was (correctly) judged, one might have thought a short time as an insei wouldn't have hurt.

Wouldn't have hurt HER.

But what would it have done to the confidence of her fellow insei?


Touya theory makes some sense regarding amateur tournaments, however you could argue that it would have the opposite effect on aspiring professionals, and anyway as far as I know Shibano Toramanu and Ichiriki Ryo were both at least as strong and they were, to the best of my knowledge, insei (the former perhaps playing Antti Törmänen while there. Choi Qionlong and Yu Senko were also almost as strong.

The insei system has a specific purpose which, like Touya, she could afford to skip.

Mamumamu has updated the age comparison section (however, ironically, such a comparison actually works best with the whole-history rating system), from which I only now found out that in addition to Lee Changho and Han Sanghoon, Yang Dingxin could be added to the list of early bloomers . . . But he's yet to win an international title. So perhaps the opinion of pros is most important here-when John Fairbairn said that pros seem to mean that her intuitive ability made her stand out for her age, it reminded me about someone saying that the reading ability of the Chinese (and Korean) insei are just as good as the top pros but there intuition is not as good. Sumire sensei's one of the exceptions, I guess. So which of these Japanese professionals would reach an international final at the earliest age (the Ing cup being the closest approach so far)?

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #296 Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 4:31 am 
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Quote:
Dingxin could be added to the list of early bloomers . . . But he's yet to win an international title.


LG will be disappointed that you don't regard their cup as an international title.

But mention of that brings up a very relevant point. Yang got a special promotion to 7-dan and the day after got promoted to 9-dan in 2019 for winning the LG Cup. The special promotions are ubiquitous now. But basically they are a form of promotion by recommendation, aren't they?

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Post #297 Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:17 am 
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Nakamura Sumire has just won the Kisei Prelims, goes into C league to have a (long) shot at the title.
B+5.5 against Torii 3p.

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Post #298 Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:23 am 
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kyulearner wrote:
Nakamura Sumire has just won the Kisei Prelims, goes into C league to have a (long) shot at the title.


If I am not mistaken, 14 wins and boom, she is Kisei.

Funny fact: she would be allowed to lose more games in the title match (3) than in her way to become challenger (0).

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Post #299 Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:01 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
I can't plot the graph, but this post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=239205#p239205 says that the median age of go players in Japan is about 70. My guess is that the Nihon Kiin is afraid that go will decline rapidly and are using Sumire to change its image and attract more young players.


First, let us remember that the Angry Aubergine - and a host of xenophobes - had plenty to say when Go Seigen was promoted straight to 3-dan in Japan by RECOMMENDATION at age 12. And that the Barmy Beetroot choked on his own smoothie juice when Cho Chikun got the Sumire treatment, being CUTELY propped up on cushions for photographers so that he could see the board. And that size matters - when you're that small you tend to play too many moves on your own side of the board. After all, if you lean over too far, you might smell the onions on the old man's breath. Even in Korea, Krazy Kimchi breathed dragon-like fumes when Yi Ch'ang-ho was promoted by recommendation to 9-dan: "He may have won over 30 titles but he's still a TEENAGER for heaven's sake!"

Second, there's lies, damned lies, statistics and Leisure White Papers. While I'm sure White Papers do paint a decent picture in the impressionist style, the methodology of compiling them does not lend itself to drawing enough detail for automatic face recognition. For example, if you inflate your request for club subsidies from the local council by inflating the numbers of people you claim are in your club, that becomes an official statistic.

Third, go - at the impressionistic White Paper level - is not declining in Japan at the moment (though it has over recent years; but that may also be due to changes in the methodology). Other things, such as golf, visiting museums and tv games go up and DOWN, too. I think even use of twitter, which counts as a major leisure activity in the White Paper, is down. But is that leisure? Is buying a lottery ticket (another major WP "activity" - cardio?) leisure? If so, is dreaming?

Age groups in the White Paper reflect real life. To say the median for go players belongs to players in their seventies may be accurate but not necessarily meaningful. There are simply many more older people now. They also tend to be well off and they have much more free time on their hands than youngsters who have to work insanely hard now to get to the best universities. A new Hikaru no Go is not going to change that much. You can see similar trends in many of the hobbies and crafts categories. Gender grouping, however, does, I believe, shows more women playing go. If so, I'm guessing that may be due to Tojima Hana's Dream Salons. Proof again of what one active person with a positive message can do.

In my view, it's not just the number of active or occasional players that matters. It might not even matter most compared to the wider support in the community. That means support from fans and businesses. In that sense, Japan is faring reasonably well, with a wide range of businesses old and new supporting the game. Fans, I think, are getting cheesed off with the lack of success internationally, but that's not necessarily a worry. Britain went decades without a Wimbledon champion until And Murray came along, yet Wimbledon remained the world's richest and/or most loved tournament in all that time, because the core fan base never wavered. I suspect that may apply in Japan for go, too. Chinese go seems very healthy in that regard. I'd be most worried about Korea. Tournaments have disappeared without being replaced, games for pros are becoming scarcer and/or less serious; the best players are gravitating towards China.

I believe it is the lack of fan and business base that most holds back go in the west, not the number or strength of its players.

London is hosting a European women's championship next year. I think I'll raise with my co-directors of the T Mark Hall Fund the possibility of inviting Sumire over as part of the publicity. After all, we got national newspaper and tv coverage here (and even on CNN) when I brought 5-year-old Liao Xingwen to London, and he was only 2d amateur. Admittedly he got to 4-dan in the space of a fortnight - I like to think because I played him in places like the queues at Legoland. But for publicity, an equally cute but FEMALE PRO should work even better. When it comes to the catering, though, I think I'll also recommend that hot dogs with mustard will be fine, but onions are off the menu.



John Fairbairn wrote:
There seem to be three aspects to the Sumire Question.

1. Is she too young for so much pressure?

Personally, I would not like my kids to face that pressure. I would fear either burn-out or the Little Miss Sunshine scenario of the America children's beauty queen circus. But maybe go is different - kids are not competing with other kids directly, and all the examples we know about in the past seem to have worked out. I think we can only leave that as a personal choice and respect the parents' decision, so it's not worth arguing about.

2. Is the Nihon Ki-in guilty of bending rules to gain hype?

It's debatable but, while I imagine they are tickled pink at the attention, I don't think they set out to create hype.

First, there are no rules to bend really. The insei system is just one route to becoming a pro (and not one that is inspiring much respect at the moment). There have always been special cases, both for becoming pro and for promotions. Not all are famous. For example, Akiyama Jiro fast-tracked to 1-dan on the recommendation of his insei instructor in 1992. He was also a product of Kikuchi Yasuro's Ryokusei Academy which has dwarfed the insei system in achievements anyway. Other examples are Han Zenki and Yu Ho, and of course there are examples of favouring westerners (in the Kansa Ki-in and Korean Giwon, too). the Kansai Ki-in's special treatment of Sakai Hideyuki also comes to mind. Some rules have been officially tweaked but not to Sumire's advantage. For example, the age limit of 15 on female pros has been lifted - but that was in 2003 and Xie Yimin (not a Japanese) was the first beneficiary.

The only rule really is what works best.

Second, the command structure in the NK is too committee-led for me to believe that someone there sat down and had a light-bulb moment. They would only respond to outsiders' suggestions, in this case perhaps the parents. The hype is a consequence, not the motivation, I suggest.

Previous cases support that. Go Seigen was talent-spotted at age 12 as the "new Shusaku" and brought to Japan at age 14 where a committee led by Honinbo Shusai decided he would start at 3-dan. A series of games was played to confirm that, but he was made pro first. Go became an overnight celebrity but not because of Nihon Ki-in hype. If there was any manipulation it was by the Japanese government seeking to impose its influence in China, and there are grounds to believe they funded the transfer of Go's family from China.

Rin Kaiho came under enormous pressure at age 10 in Taiwan with people fighting to get into the vast hall to see him play Go Seigen when Go was made Daguoshou. The Nihon Ki-in was not involved. Read Rin's biography to see the effect it had on him, along with the pressure of being paraded around Japan as "Go's discovery."

Cho Chikun was put in front of a huge audience to play, against Rin ironically, at the Sankei Hall the day after he arrived in Tokyo at age 6, and that was after big events at his departure from Korea. Again the Nihon Ki-in was not specially involved as Cho was a live-in pupil of Kitani Minoru (whom the Korean side paid directly). Cho did join the insei system as a 10-kyu and was beaten down to a 10-stone handicap at one stage, and so in his case there was nothing but perceived talent to support any hype.

Third, when all the above players were being groomed for stardom, they played with the appropriate handicaps. In contrast, Sumire has played mostly even games, and of course is younger as a 1-dan, and is female. She therefore stands out in various ways, and we must expect some sort of hype. But whether it is the Nihon Ki-in that is responsible seems doubtful - they are just going along for the ride. Those responsible are media organisations, franchisers or the general public. The Nihon Ki-in did not ask L19 to set up this thread, for example. In the NK's own publications, Sumire is a minor presence. In the latest Go Weekly she doesn't even seem to get a mention - the big hype there is about Yoda Norimoto, who seems to pup up on almost every page. Previous issues of Go Weekly, and Go Monthly especially, mention Sumire in a mostly muted way.

My conclusion is that the Nihon Ki-in has not bent any rules, nor is it acting irresponsibly.

3. How strong is Sumire?

Obviously I can't say personally. I have pointed out above that she is playing mostly even games. This is a trend for other young players in Japan. Not too long ago, when a player made 1-dan he was eased into the limelight by being paid to have a published game with a 9-dan pro, usually at 2 stones, as a sort of welcome. Go Weekly is still running such a series (it was a staple in the Kansai Ki-in magazine, too). The handicap now is basically B-W with komi but is adjusted either way according to the previous player's result. Sumire's game with Joanne Missingham (another player enjoying special treatment as a child, in China in her case, not to mention Little Miss Sunshine treatment as a child model in Taiwan - but she seems to have coped) was part of this series. Sumire lost, but so do most of the other new 1-dans. A 1-dan pro in Japan is not really expected to be close to a 9-dan.

But what I find telling is that in all the CJK countries the pro organisations have a remarkably good (?perfect) record in predicting which kids will be the future stars, even many years before they make the grade (we can exclude the diplomatic diplomas given to westerners, of course). On that basis alone I would be confident that Sumire is on track to become at least one of the strongest female pros.

Before too long we could see a golden age of female go in Japan, still with Xie Yimin perhaps, but with the likes of Sumire and fellow recommendees Hane Ayaka and Takao Mori and Uneo Risa snapping at the heels of Fujisawa Rina and Ueno Asami. Since some of them have already notched up some significant male scalps, I'd expect one of them to be the first female 9-dan in Japan. It's something to really look forward to.




I cannot understand why she hasn't played an exhibition match with Cho Chikun yet. To me she seems like his natural successor in more ways than one.

John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Dingxin could be added to the list of early bloomers . . . But he's yet to win an international title.


LG will be disappointed that you don't regard their cup as an international title.

But mention of that brings up a very relevant point. Yang got a special promotion to 7-dan and the day after got promoted to 9-dan in 2019 for winning the LG Cup. The special promotions are ubiquitous now. But basically they are a form of promotion by recommendation, aren't they?


Thank you, I should be sure to check if Wikipedia articles are up to date.

But judging from goratings, which shouldn't suffer from to much rating inflation, and mamumamu0413', he was stronger the Lee Changho at the same age . . . but I don't remember Yang Dingxin ever being number one . . .

And perhaps promotion based on entering a final rather than winning it seems more balanced. It relies less on probability.

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Last edited by ElomKW on Mon May 10, 2021 3:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #300 Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 2:31 am 
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This just in, Sumire's game against Nyu Eiko in the Female Honinbo:



Attachments:
Nakamura-Nyu_09052021.sgf [2.09 KiB]
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