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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #601 Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 2:00 am 
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You have Li down as 2-dan. She is 3-dan, and as far as I can see that is also what is said in the video captions. She's 17 BTW.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #602 Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 2:11 am 
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Thanks for the correction! Tygem had her as 2p so I just copied that. Must be a recent promotion, as far as I can see she was still playing as 2p less than a month ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #603 Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 2:44 am 
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Yes, tough game. But, as someone in the stream said, those are top players. Even losing, just being able to put up a fight says a lot.

I see that Sumire might play a total of 4 games now (days 15, 17, 18) and perhaps more in the next rounds. It's a team competition, but I don't know how many members per team, and how many of them play at the same time. I see that the players for each individual game are announced 1 day before the game, but I don't know if that means the order of the players (first board, second board...) or who is playing each round.

Whatever happens, Sumire is going to get a lot of experience from this.


Last edited by pajaro on Sun May 14, 2023 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #604 Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 3:00 am 
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If I understand articles such as this one, it seems each team has 4 members, with 3 of them playing in each match. There are 10 teams and they will meat each other twice, so 18 rounds in total. The table showing the order in which they'll meet is attached below (taken from here).

Sumire is a member of team #8, 福建博思软件队 (a Fujianese software company?).

Image


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #605 Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 3:24 am 
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Shenoute wrote:
Thanks for the correction! Tygem had her as 2p so I just copied that. Must be a recent promotion, as far as I can see she was still playing as 2p less than a month ago.


If Tygem works like Fox, it takes a long time to update the rank of professional players. Kibe Natsuki 3-dan (promoted in 2022) is still 2p in Fox, and I think I have other examples.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #606 Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 9:01 am 
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pajaro wrote:
Yes, tough game. But, as someone in the stream said, those are top players. Even losing, just being able to put up a fight says a lot.

I see that Sumire might play a total of 4 games now (days 15, 17, 18) and perhaps more in the next rounds. It's a team competition, but I don't know how many members per team, and how many of them play at the same time. I see that the players for each individual game are announced 1 day before the game, but I don't know if that means the order of the players (first board, second board...) or who is playing each round.

Whatever happens, Sumire is going to get a lot of experience from this.


I might have been exaggerating when I made that statement since 3rd board of a 6th placed team in the A league is probably equivalent in strength to 2nd board of a 5th placed team in the B league, but when you consider the depth in China none of these pros are lightweights in the women's game.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #607 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 3:21 am 
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Tough game today too. Black played some kind of Chinese opening. I don't think that's very common nowadays, is it?
Nothing really caught my eye although I didn't really like white potentially being split into four(!) groups at the bottom after :b55: .
I'm not sure what was going on in the bottom right corner starting around :w60:. Was the goal to get moves like N2 and N7 in sente and keeping sente at all cost to avoid w J2?
Also, I guess white 101 is bad shape but maybe it's a good move here, I don't know. It doesn't look like white achieved much around there though.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #608 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 1:23 pm 
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This is the 4th game between them, if I am not mistaken, and the result has always been the same. 2 of those games were in an event called "China-Japan Superstars Competition", in the end of 2019. Both were (even) younger and already drawing a lot of attention.

I am wondering how is the rest of Sumire's team doing, and in what position she has been playing. Is she first board? Second? Third? There is a 4-dan and 2 1-dan in her team, but I don't know how are the pairings, considering that there will be lots of rounds and games to play. And also, considering that most of the other players are Chinese and know each other, how must the other non Chinese players be doing?

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #609 Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 1:26 am 
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Another loss for Sumire: https://igo-kifu.com/kifu/98327

The sequence starting with :w90: is interesting. I'm not sure I like white's idea of creating an unstable group but since black has one too maybe that's fine. Black seems to dodge the attack without too much trouble though. Especially after :white: 118. To my untrained eyes, this move looks like white is trying very (too?) hard.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #610 Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 4:13 am 
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I, too, think that sometimes she is trying too hard.

In many of her games (wins and loses alike), I see that the AI evaluation puts her behind. Then, maybe she finds an unexpected move, or she had a hidden plan, and she wins. Or her hidden plan is not perfect, the AI knows, and her rival knows too. And then she loses. This is a risky line of play, but if you win enough, you get a false sensation of security. You tend to think that overplays are actually right, and overlook the danger. This is true for amateur players, but I guess that can be also true for pro players. At a different level, of course. But Sumire is still very young, and her mind can play tricks with her. As an spectator, I think that her biggest weak point is handling her mind, and her biggest enemy is herself (such a cliché, but so true).

Everything, of course, IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #611 Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 1:30 am 
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Sumire lost her game against Takao Mari in the 2nd round of the 42nd Female Honinbo.
Maybe I should stop watching her games live, at this point it feels like I'm jinxing her.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #612 Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 9:58 am 
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You are not jinxing her. She is jinxing herself.

JK wrote "what's going on, Sumire?" in the video of the loss with Ayami.
Now, he wrote "Big slump, Sumire".

Clearly, she can lose to some people. But to some others, in this way... I hope she recovers soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #613 Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:01 am 
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Hopefully she does!

Watching these last few games of hers, I was reminded of what Michael Redmond said about his own career. That early on he used to play power go, aiming at subduing the opponent, but that at some point it just stopped working and he had to find something else.
Maybe the connexion is just in my mind though.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #614 Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:00 am 
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Sumire won her game against Xu Haizhe 2p in the Chinese league: https://igo-kifu.com/kifu/98418

Some pictures here. If I remember correctly, Sumire played her first two games online but this time she travelled to China.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #615 Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:12 am 
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Yes, finally she won again.

Sumire lost also in the first round of the Go Seigen cup, but saw that she didn't play on-line, like the rest of the Japanese team. Here's the reason, the trip was to play more than one game.
I don't know how strong is Xu Haizhe. It could have been an easy win, giving a false feeling of confidence. Or could be a strong opponent, helping Sumire get over her slump.

The league is a team competition. Every player could play up to 3 games per round. Let's see if Sumire plays again and how she does.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #616 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 2:01 am 
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Sumire lost her game against Feng Yunjia 1p in the Chinese League.

I haven't put the game into Katago yet but it seems to me that the turning point was move 126. I was fully expecting white to come back to the center (G8 maybe?).


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #617 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 12:21 pm 
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According to the IA used in Fox, the mistake would be the #138 atari. White had to connect the two weak groups there. Then, the black stone (H7) wouldn't matter anymore.

Sumire's chances went from some 70% to about 20%. When I see such a drop, I like to think "she played well, she needs to keep focus". But it could also be "opponents could feel that they can always expect a blunder".

I don't know... I hope it's a mental problem and not a lack of skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #618 Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 10:04 am 
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I looked at it with KataGo's strongest model, and a lot of computation power. It seems that she just focused on the wrong area in a situation where deciding what the right area is takes Katago 25000 visits. It considers move 136 as almost as bad as 138. So could it be that the result was kind of random because it became too complicated?

Here's my Katago's analysis:


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #619 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 1:54 am 
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Today Sumire beat Xie Yimin in the last game of the B prelim of the Gosei.

The beggining of the game followed the usual pattern these days: Sumire starts well, gets and advantage, then tries some attack, it fails, gets into a bad position, game over.
I was watching and when I had to leave, Sumire (white) was way behind, playing small moves to secure life. Painful.

When I came back home, I was just in time to see her win by 0.5 points. Really, really close. All this made me think:
- Sumire has already beaten Xie before, she should be comfortable with this game.
- She can still play well early on. Luckily, this hasn't changed due to her current slump.
- She still fights back. It requires a lot of mental strength not to give up in this situation.

Not out of the woods yet, but I hope this game can be a turning point. In the Gosei, she will face some stronger opponent in the A prelim.

In 7 days, Sumire will face So Yokoku 9-dan in another A prelim (Judan). I think that they have played before, but I might be wrong. Let's see if she can beat a 9-dan again.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #620 Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:21 am 
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pajaro wrote:

In 7 days, Sumire will face So Yokoku 9-dan in another A prelim (Judan). I think that they have played before, but I might be wrong. Let's see if she can beat a 9-dan again.


I quote myself :razz:

This game just finished, with a convincing win for Sumire. I am looking forward to see JK's video about it. I'd say that she was never in serious trouble. There was a ko towards the end, but the result was surprisingly favorable to white (Sumire). I say surprising because there was a move that I didn't see coming, but perhaps was the obvious one.

With this, Sumire wins the first game of the A prelim, and I think she makes sure to play at least in this prelim next year. That's good, because her streak of loses has made her lose a few seeds.

About her losing streak, is it over? I'd love to say yes, but I can't. If the next couple of months she has normal results, then great. But it's too early.
What I can say is that So Yokoku is ranked 36 in mamumamu and is perhaps the highest ranked player she has defeated. Both Asami and Rina are right now above 36, but I don't know their rankings when Sumire beat them. So Yokoku is a Honinbo challenger. This has to mean something. Anyway, pretty close.

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