It is currently Mon Feb 26, 2024 2:03 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Early-early 3-3
Post #1 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:36 pm 
Oza

Posts: 3635
Liked others: 20
Was liked: 4617
I came across something today that seemed to relate, in one way or another, to several threads here. One is the thread on moyos, another is a thread that mentions some equipment failure (too few stones?), and of course lots of threads that mention thickness and AI. It is also connected with me re-reading my favourite play, Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme by Molière, and with the fact that, today, I was doing a dance called the Highland Rambler, also nicknamed the Highland Wobbler.

The context is that one of the great go journalists, Akiyama Kenji (born 1946), was talking about go stones being too thick. Honinbo III Doetsu (1636 ~ 1727; roughly contemporary with Molière, as it happens) supposedly set the first standard for go-board size - together with Itagaki Yusen, it should be said. The cynics among us may choose to believe Yusen did the work and Doetsu took the credit. Either way, they set the thickness at 3.75 sun. Sun is 1.2 inches, which my ruler tells me is about 11 cm (whatever they are).

As time passed, the thickness crept up. In middle Edo, the standard thickness reached 4.8 sun. In the Meiji era, 5 sun became the norm. At present 6 sun is a lower limit. To some extent, this may be connected with increasing average height of the players, but probably it also had a good deal to do with showing off wealth. At any rate, as boards got thicker, so stones got thicker, just as, no doubt, the waists of the Japanese equivalents of M. Jourdain got thicker. But this, apparently, did not please go professionals.

Akiyama recalled Game 1 of the 50th Tengen title-match in 1980. This story was not reported in Go World so will be new to most of you. The game was played in a VERY posh hotel called Kagaya in Wakura Spa in Ishikawa Prefecture, in a room once occupied by Emperor Hirohito. What was considered a fitting go board and (apparently) thick was therefore procured the day before, by a very rich patron, from a local craftsman. Everyone agreed it was a masterpiece.

Kato Masao (the holder) was Black and played his first move at the upper-right star point. Challenger Yamabe Toshiro countered with White 2 at the diagonally opposite star point. At least he thought he did. The stone moved a fraction. There had been an earthquake the day before on the Noto Peninsula, and he seems to have assumed there were still minor earth tremors. So he tried again, but again the stone wobbled away. And again. And again. Eventually, the earthquake was discounted and everyone turned their scrutiny to the board and discovered that the lacquer was too proud at certain points. Because the purchase had been so recent, no-one had checked the board beforehand. Akiyama didn't say what they did about that, but from the context it seems they switched to some thinner stones.

There is something else to say about that game, but before that, I will mention another tale by Akiyama from a Meijin title-match ten years later, held in Miyazaki Prefecture, part of which was called Hyuga in Edo times. That area is famous for its kaya boards and "Hyuga White" hamaguri clam stones. Because it's a big local industry, competition among manufacturers is intense, but a new board (kaya, of course) was settled on first. Then came the questions of stones. The board-maker wanted the very best stones, the thick ones, to be sued with his magnificent board. But prudence too over and so the go officials got him to bring along three sets for the plsyers to choose from. Sure enough, the players chose the thin ones.

Now back to the Tengen game. Step though first to move 11 and then guess where Yamabe played White 12.



Yes, an early-early 3-3. Take that, AlphaGo, which takes the credit for innovation just like Doetsu (probably) overshadowing Yusen. Remarkably, katago seems to say this is the best move. More remarkably, when the AlphaGo 3-3 hit the headlines, one conclusion drawn was that pros had assumed, wrongly it was said, that they had to finish off with the hanetsugi (White 20 and 22 here) but was a mistake. Well, Yamabe played taht here and my KaTrain says that was correct!

In the post-mortem Yamabe (who got a good game initially but lost) asked whether White 12 was too early? Kato thought that perhaps it was, but did not criticise it. Yamabe did, however, reveal that he played the 3-3 mainly because he didn't know what to do in the lower right.

Now the next interesting feature of this game. Step through to move 53 and you will see the mother of all moyos - big enough to two sumo wrestlers, said Yamabe. How do you play against it. Bear in mind that moyo maestro Takemiya says the ideal way to play WITH a moyo is to invite the opponent in let him live small. But, actually, both players agreed that Black 53 was a mistake. Black should have played at J11.

To go from one extreme to the other, and thus to show how rich go is, take a look at another game from the Kagaya venue (which seems nowadays to have lost favour with go organisers - too up-market?). This is a Gosei title-match in 1986, with Cho Chikun as Black and Otake Hideo as White. It can be seen as relevant to the moyo discussion, but first step through to White 28 and what do you see?



Yes. ALL Black's moves up to B27 are on the 2nd or 3rd line. And eleven of White's fourteen moves are on the fourth line or higher.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by: sorin
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early-early 3-3
Post #2 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:01 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 44
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 8
But how thick were the "thin" stones? Or the "thick" ones?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early-early 3-3
Post #3 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:07 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6082
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
"Kato Masao (the holder) was Black and played his first move at the upper-right star point. Challenger Yamabe Toshiro countered with White 2 at the diagonally opposite star point."

And now, according to the thread title, I expected, of course, 3-3 under 4-4, which, according to Katago, is the best move.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early-early 3-3
Post #4 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:56 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 863
Liked others: 22
Was liked: 166
Rank: panda 5 dan
IGS: kvasir
Cho Chikun appears to repeat this third line theme occasionally. I posted about his game with Xie Yimin.

The theme was only broken in this diagram and looks like white is inviting himself to black's moyo. This time Cho Chikun lost but I recall that the score evaluation wasn't that big of a deal yet when he resigned. I checked just now, initially it is B+5 but then it drops to B+4.5. The final position does look like black has won when it is a long game between top pros but maybe it wasn't as easy as it looked.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O O O . X . . . . . . . . . O . .|
$$ | . . O X O O X . O O . O . . O . O X .|
$$ | . O . X X X . . X , . . . . . X X . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . O . O . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


I recall that in "My views on Go" he writes about Kitani Minoru something to the effect that no one can mimic Kitani's style, he has tried and failed himself, and that Kitani played much on the third line. Maybe this is the motivation behind the 3rd line theme :)

Game record:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early-early 3-3
Post #5 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 4:16 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 141
Liked others: 131
Was liked: 22
I recall some post game/post match interview with Kato where he talked about the stress of playing Yamabe - because the interview featured some unusually strong/candid views. IIRC Kato said something like Yamabe would play moves 'out of spite' that had an unclear outcome for both players and, despite the one sided result of the match, the stress on him (Kato) was almost unbearable.

There may almost have been a psychological factor at play as well in that I think Kato had been in a relative slump (for him) the previous year, and was extra keen to demonstrate his return to form.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early-early 3-3
Post #6 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 7:55 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1586
Liked others: 885
Was liked: 526
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
John Fairbairn wrote:
Yes, an early-early 3-3. Take that, AlphaGo, which takes the credit for innovation just like Doetsu (probably) overshadowing Yusen. Remarkably, katago seems to say this is the best move. More remarkably, when the AlphaGo 3-3 hit the headlines, one conclusion drawn was that pros had assumed, wrongly it was said, that they had to finish off with the hanetsugi (White 20 and 22 here) but was a mistake. Well, Yamabe played taht here and my KaTrain says that was correct!

My recollection (perhaps faulty) from the 1970s-80s go books I learned from (Elementary Go Series etc.) is that I was told that the full 3-3 invasion (ending with the hane and connect) is reasonable once Black has played on both nearby sides (K16 and Q10). The one example I could quickly find is from "The Power of the Star-Point" by Takagawa. He gives a sanrensei example where Black has not played K16, and says the 3-3 invasion is premature, then gives an example where Black has, and says that at this point the 3-3 invasion is playable because K16 would prefer to be one point to the left.

Anyway, the subtleties are beyond me, but when I saw the 3-3 invasion played out here it didn't strike me as being at odds with either 1980-era Japanese or modern-era AI theory. (Of course here one stone is on R9 instead of Q10; I'm not qualified to assess how much of a difference that makes.)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early-early 3-3
Post #7 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 9:13 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 388
Liked others: 416
Was liked: 198
dfan wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
Yes, an early-early 3-3. Take that, AlphaGo, which takes the credit for innovation just like Doetsu (probably) overshadowing Yusen. Remarkably, katago seems to say this is the best move. More remarkably, when the AlphaGo 3-3 hit the headlines, one conclusion drawn was that pros had assumed, wrongly it was said, that they had to finish off with the hanetsugi (White 20 and 22 here) but was a mistake. Well, Yamabe played taht here and my KaTrain says that was correct!

My recollection (perhaps faulty) from the 1970s-80s go books I learned from (Elementary Go Series etc.) is that I was told that the full 3-3 invasion (ending with the hane and connect) is reasonable once Black has played on both nearby sides (K16 and Q10). The one example I could quickly find is from "The Power of the Star-Point" by Takagawa.)


I had the exact reaction when reading John's post - I could clearly remember "from the old days" that extending on both sides from 4x4 is inviting a 3x3 invasion, as a common-sense thing. Except that I couldn't remember at all the source of this, I would have guessed some Go World game commentary.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early-early 3-3
Post #8 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:18 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 141
Liked others: 131
Was liked: 22
Kato and Yamabe comment on their game in Go World 24, March - April 1981 [translated from Ito Club)

Instead of the 3-3 invasion at 12, Kato suggests capping move 5 at O9.

Incidental additional detail includes that Yamabe won the right to challenge when his opponent, Ushinohama Satsuo of the Kansai Ki-in, went to sleep in his room in the evening break and let his time run out.


This post by dust was liked by: sorin
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group