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Who should win
1.Give Eric Lui the win because the game clock says he won. 9%  9%  [ 16 ]
2. Give Mateusz Surma the win because he had a clearly won game. 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
3. Resume the game at the point at which there was an alleged communication failure. 26%  26%  [ 45 ]
4. Rematch. Void the game and play it again. 14%  14%  [ 25 ]
5. Give both players a loss. Eliminate both, and bring the next players up. 5%  5%  [ 8 ]
6. Flip a coin to determine the winner. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
------------------------------------------ 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
I am an AGA member and/or live in the USA. 9%  9%  [ 16 ]
I am an EGF member and/or live in Europe. 25%  25%  [ 43 ]
I am not affiliated in any way with either the AGA or the EGF. 8%  8%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 173
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 Post subject: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #1 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 9:24 am 
Tengen
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Please vote at least twice: once in the upper portion for your opinion of how to resolve the issue, and once in the lower portion to tell us where you live. ( You can vote multiple times in the upper portion if you find multiple solutions to be acceptable. )


Last edited by Uberdude on Fri May 10, 2019 11:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
Surma Lui typo, numbers

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Liu vs Serma clock dispute
Post #2 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 9:52 am 
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I was not going to vote, having expressed my views in the discussion that the fault lies with the tournament organizers and, to some extent, KGS. So my vote would have been that the organizers lose. However, being forced to make a choice can be informative, so I came up with an option.

My choice is to resume the tournament, under different conditions. Do not let KGS handle the time controls, since they do a crappy job of dealing with netlag. Instead, make the proctors responsible for keeping and recording time. This is doable with only one tournament game going on at one location at any time.

Since the players are not at fault but the tournament conditions were, probably the fairest thing would be to declare the game without result and let the players have a rematch under the new conditions.

Do not use KGS in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Liu vs Surma clock dispute
Post #3 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:22 am 
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Another option is to void the entire tournament altogether, and make a new one later with more explicit rules and a better server.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Liu vs Surma clock dispute
Post #4 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:36 am 
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Shame my AGA membership expired or I could tick both EGF and AGA ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Liu vs Serma clock dispute
Post #5 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:27 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
I was not going to vote, having expressed my views in the discussion that the fault lies with the tournament organizers and, to some extent, KGS. So my vote would have been that the organizers lose. However, being forced to make a choice can be informative, so I came up with an option...


So it was you who voted for the dotted line. :cool:


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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #6 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 1:12 pm 
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I have had situations where at least KGS, IGS, Tygem and Wbaduk all showed signs of lag, due to defective local network conditions. None of them compensated. I am not sure they should compensate, though, but rather warn when a round-trip latency exceeds some threshold. Some video conference software does this. In the meantime, I like Bill's two-proctor suggestion

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Liu vs Serma clock dispute
Post #7 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:28 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
I was not going to vote, having expressed my views in the discussion that the fault lies with the tournament organizers and, to some extent, KGS. So my vote would have been that the organizers lose. However, being forced to make a choice can be informative, so I came up with an option...


So it was you who voted for the dotted line. :cool:


Under an assumed name. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #8 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:48 pm 
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It baffles me why there are other options except the 2nd and 3rd, but maybe that's just me. Especially, giving Eric the win in a clearly lost game, 10 moves before filling dame, like seriously? The proctor confirms the lag issue and the organizers failed to consider such an event. Is this a game between two random DDK or between professionals?

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #9 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:59 pm 
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dsatkas wrote:
Especially, giving Eric the win in a clearly lost game, 10 moves before filling dame, like seriously?


It’s not a case that he “clearly lost”. If you take the time settings literally, he “clearly won” on time. On KGS, if you play a ranked game and are ahead on board, losing on time still brings down your rank.

But this tournament is not the same as the KGS ranking system, so it can have different rules. But those different rules were not specified, hence the ambiguity toward what should be done.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #10 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 3:10 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
dsatkas wrote:
Especially, giving Eric the win in a clearly lost game, 10 moves before filling dame, like seriously?


It’s not a case that he “clearly lost”. If you take the time settings literally, he “clearly won” on time.

In the first game I have ever played in a tournament, I kept three quarters of the board worth of my opponent's stones dead and lost on time.
Whether KGS should be trusted with keeping time is a completely different issue than whether losing a 'clearly' won game (whatever that means in general) on time should be appealable.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #11 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 3:29 pm 
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dsatkas wrote:
It baffles me why there are other options except the 2nd and 3rd, but maybe that's just me. Especially, giving Eric the win in a clearly lost game, 10 moves before filling dame, like seriously? The proctor confirms the lag issue and the organizers failed to consider such an event. Is this a game between two random DDK or between professionals?


By comparison with games that have more complicated rules, go is fortunate that rulings are rarely necessary. That's good, but the downside is that referees, directors, and organizers are not always prepared to issue rulings and/or do not anticipate potential problems. I was trained as a contract bridge director, a game with complicated rules such that every large tournament requires an appeals committee. I always ask what can go wrong and how can we deal with it?

It appears that the question of netlag was not explicitly addressed in any tournament rules. If so, that is unfortunate. However, the organizers are professionals and are giving the situation the serious deliberation it deserves, and whatever decision they reach will be a reasoned one. It is by no means necessary that a winner and loser be declared for this particular game.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #12 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 4:38 pm 
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yakcyll wrote:
In the first game I have ever played in a tournament, I kept three quarters of the board worth of my opponent's stones dead and lost on time.


I’ve lost a “won” game, too, in a tournament. It is very frustrating, but a part of the game.

I agree with you that the question of whether KGS can be trusted to keep time is an interesting question, and probably, one that wasn’t clarified before the tournament started.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #13 Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:20 pm 
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The rules exist to support the game, not the other way around. When all else fails, remember that we are playing Go, not "who has the better Internet connection."

This isn't some weird exotic case where shenanigans were had, this is just internet lag. Technical issues like internet lag or a faulty clock should not decide games.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #14 Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:50 am 
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If we can't 100%:ly trust the proctors, then voiding and rematch is the best option, because other options either favor Mateusz or Eric imo while this is probably most neutral in relation to whether it was lag or not and who deserves the win. Currently the most popular poll result of resuming the game from where it left off would favor Mateusz in a case that he actually was lost in thought and actually lost on time.

As to what are the right things to do to avoid this in future. Local time keeping could help on that to some extent. Either a software that registers the plays timestamps locally also or so would provide proof if we can trust that the local data is not hacked. So maybe when the server registers each move on the server, they would also be sent the timestamp the local computer recorded and store that too (but maybe without affecting the actual servers time keeping clock though). I guess this is not the case on any online go server. I have heard the IGS at least records timestamps to the kifu's, but I haven't checked into that.

Also there could be a web stream streaming video of the player playing on his computer.

This tournament has been a good thing for the western go and I hope that this setback won't discourage organizers despite getting some tough feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #15 Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:59 am 
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What would happen if they ask the players how to solve this? I think Eric Liu is highly embarrassed with the whole situation and will gladly accept any reasonable offer, such as playing a new game or continuing from where Mateusz allegedly left it.


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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #16 Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 5:39 am 
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Kirby wrote:
It’s not a case that he “clearly lost”. If you take the time settings literally, he “clearly won” on time


Sure, you're right, but what is the purpose of this tournament? Isn't it to find which team is the strongest? How a win for Eric furthers this purpose? That's one argument, that of, what are we doing here anyway. Another argument could be, that of satisfaction. How satisfying is a victory in a clearly lost position? Then, we could think about if Surma did that on purpose, which he clearly didn't, since he was comfortably ahead many moves before the incident. Also, it was confirmed that there was a lag issue. I think the most honest outcome, would be to continue from where they left, but it's kinda pointless, since the game is already over.

What annoys me, is that Europe and USA have to resort to an online tournament instead of a live one. If the cost is too much for travelling, just make it a 1-day thing, where 5 pairs play simultaneously, with proper time settings for such a serious tournament; at least 2 hours main time etc. It might also be more interesting to see the tactics of who goes board one, what openings they use and so much more. Change the venue every year alternating between Europe and USA. With proper marketing, it shouldn't be impossible to cover the costs.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #17 Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 5:57 am 
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dsatkas wrote:
Also, it was confirmed that there was a lag issue.

Can you tell me where you got the info that it was confirmed? I've seen it claimed a couple of times in these threads but it's all second-hand. I have not seen any actual statements by a proctor.


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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #18 Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:32 am 
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dsatkas wrote:
Kirby wrote:
It’s not a case that he “clearly lost”. If you take the time settings literally, he “clearly won” on time


Sure, you're right, but what is the purpose of this tournament? Isn't it to find which team is the strongest? How a win for Eric furthers this purpose? That's one argument, that of, what are we doing here anyway. Another argument could be, that of satisfaction. How satisfying is a victory in a clearly lost position?


You bring up good points, and it's very unsatisfying in any case where the game is decided by time. It leaves a feeling of incompleteness. My earlier point was simply that it is not necessarily "clear" that Eric lost, due to the ambiguity as to what should happen in the case of lag.

For example, I see this blurb on some poker sites:
Quote:
By participating in a tournament, a player accepts the risk of Internet disconnection, due to problems with the connection between their computer and the servers, lag or freeze or some other problem in the player's computer or the Internet


It's not the only way to hold a tournament, and there doesn't seem to be anything outlined in the rules for the transatlantic go tournament. There are just many ways to interpret the situation of internet lag.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #19 Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:25 am 
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Not that a Poker server would be profitable if they had to investigate every disappearance from a table.

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 Post subject: Re: POLL: Lui vs Surma clock dispute
Post #20 Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:36 am 
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Javaness2 wrote:
Not that a Poker server would be profitable if they had to investigate every disappearance from a table.


There are many different ways to decide how to address lag. I'm just saying here, that the winner is not clear, as was seemed to be implied by an earlier comment.

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