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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #21 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:58 pm 
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silviu22 wrote:
After this last win in vs Jang Dingxin 9p (#8 - 3569), Shin Jinseo's rank is at a new record: 3699. It would be nice if Shin could get another win and break 3700.

Shin just won another game in Chinese league and reached 3700 as you wish.


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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #22 Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:45 pm 
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trout wrote:
Shin just won another game in Chinese league and reached 3700 as you wish.


Nice! :clap: Looks like he had another win in the Chinese league as well.
But now I see his rating was increased to 3700 retroactively back to June 23, 2019. 3700 is a new record as far as I know.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #23 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:24 am 
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Shin's winning form continues, with a win over Shi yue in the Chinese league. He was behind in the opening and early middlegame, but made a moyo and when Shi reduced it poorly seized his chance and then closed out the win.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #24 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:21 pm 
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So what international majors has Shin won so far?

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #25 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:21 pm 
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So when do we get to see Shin compete for a major title like MLilly or Ing or similar?
Is he slated to be in one soon? ( I don't know the entry/admission procedures for them )

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #26 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:43 pm 
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He won asian tv cup(2019 edition), and Globis Cup (2017 edition).

From probability point of view, if we have 16 players knockout tournament with 1 game matches, if field is equally strong (lets assume same probability of win with either colour), chance of win is only 6,25%. If one of player is sligtly better (60% chance of win against others), his chances of winning tournament rise only to 12,96% (he would win one of about 8 tournaments like that). If he would be pretty dominant (80%), his chances rise to about 41%.

Difference in top group of go players are rather small. Its not like Kasparov was 2800 elo, about 100 elo above rest of top 10, and he was winning almost all tournaments he played in his prime.

Its all because of formats of current go tournaments. Let them play 5 games matches instead of 1, and you will not see almost anybody except top 7 winning tournament.


Last edited by AloneAgainstAll on Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #27 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:50 pm 
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AloneAgainstAll wrote:
He won asian tv cup(2019 edition), and GC Caltex Cup(2018 edition).

From probability point of view, if we have 16 players knockout tournament with 1 game matches, if field is equally strong (lets assume same probability of win with either colour), chance of win is only 6,25%. If one of player is sligtly better (60% chance of win against others), his chances of winning tournament rise only to 12,96% (he would win one of about 8 tournaments like that). If he would be pretty dominant (80%), his chances rise to about 41%.

Difference in top group of go players are rather small. Its not like Kasparov was 2800 elo, about 100 elo above rest of top 10, and he was winning almost all tournaments he played in his prime.

Its all because of formats of current go tournaments. Let them play 5 games matches instead of 1, and you will not see almost anybody except top 7 winning tournament.


From probability point of view, for someone who's constantly achieving record Elo ratings, Shin should have won a few more international majors than he actually has, which is precisely zero.

He needs to start winning a few soon. Elo numbers are nice, really nice, but...

Maybe he needs a new haircut. He's still sporting the same bowl cut as he did when he was a little boy. A new adult hair style might just be the lucky change he needs. :lol:

P.S. Asian TV Cup and Globis Cup are not international majors.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #28 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:18 pm 
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ewan1971 wrote:

From probability point of view, for someone who's constantly achieving record Elo ratings, Shin should have won a few more international majors than he actually has, which is precisely zero.

He needs to start winning a few soon. Elo numbers are nice, really nice, but...

P.S. Asian TV Cup and Globis Cup are not international majors.



Thats false (probability part), and i already proved it, but you deny it not backing up it with ANY facts.

First, he is not constantly achieving record elo rating, but he overthrown Ke Jie/Park Junghwan recently.
Second, his 3700 rating against opposition about 3550 gives him sth like 55%-60%, way not enough to constantly win tournaments. Even 80% edge, as i proved does not even give 50% to win 16 player tournament, and when you have more steps, probability shut downs.

Maybe asian tv cup is not major, but it didnt change probabilities. Its just time, in 5 years, if he keep 1st rank spot, i am pretty sure he will have some majors. Btw who decide which international tournament is major or not?

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #29 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:08 pm 
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Shin has a very high rating because goratings assigns equal weight to all games, whereas in terms of prestige we assign more to final rounds of international tournaments. He's very good at consistently beating the world's top 50-5 players in low-to-moderate stakes games like the Korean and Chinese leagues, but has a less good record against the very top players and to-date has tended to bottle it on the biggest stages where a top 5 player with more experience than him will often be a 'final boss'. He did make the finals of 2 majors recently but lost 1-2 to Chen Yaoye (below top 5 but experience won) in the 1st Tianfu cup final in December 2018 and 0-2 to Ke Jie in the 4th Bailing cup final in January 2019. Park Junghwan had similar things said about him too some years ago as he won a bunch of domestic tournaments and was high on rating lists before he won his first international tournament a few years later. He's done ok since (4 titles now to Ke Jie's 7). I read in an interview Shin wanted to win an international major before he turns 20, which is March next year (Western age). Not sure if he can manage that with the schedule, but I expect he'll get one eventually. He's in the last 8 of this year's LG cup.

As for Asian TV up, it counts as half a major to me, and the Chinese pro association thought it worthy on winning to cause immediate promotion to 9p for Li Qincheng.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #30 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:54 pm 
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While he seems to be at the center of attention in the go world right now, is it possible to see in advance his schedule of upcoming matches on some website, or can someone post here that info if they know? Sometimes it could add a bit extra motivation to review his new game records if can anticipate/preview the coming matches a bit in advance

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #31 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:47 am 
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Mr Kin's site sometimes has dates on future tournament rounds, so browsing through those you can find future games of player of interest. trout sometimes posts schedules here. Other than that I just found out about games when they happen. I'm sure there's more info on CJK websites...

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #32 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:43 am 
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AloneAgainstAll wrote:
ewan1971 wrote:

From probability point of view, for someone who's constantly achieving record Elo ratings, Shin should have won a few more international majors than he actually has, which is precisely zero.

He needs to start winning a few soon. Elo numbers are nice, really nice, but...

P.S. Asian TV Cup and Globis Cup are not international majors.



Thats false (probability part), and i already proved it, but you deny it not backing up it with ANY facts.

First, he is not constantly achieving record elo rating, but he overthrown Ke Jie/Park Junghwan recently.
Second, his 3700 rating against opposition about 3550 gives him sth like 55%-60%, way not enough to constantly win tournaments. Even 80% edge, as i proved does not even give 50% to win 16 player tournament, and when you have more steps, probability shut downs.

Maybe asian tv cup is not major, but it didnt change probabilities. Its just time, in 5 years, if he keep 1st rank spot, i am pretty sure he will have some majors. Btw who decide which international tournament is major or not?


Would you take it easy? :D I wasn't talking about the Asian TV cup or Shin's probability of winning a tournament. I was merely being facetious to make a point, which is why there was an emoji in my original post.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #33 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:44 am 
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In all seriousness, the constant stream of updates on every tiny increase in Shin's Elo rating is a bit much.

I mean it's nice his Elo is scaling new incremental heights after each won game, but do we need an update on it every time it happens? Do we need our computers to announce the time when each minute passes? Does a pedometer app need to announce the count each time we take an additional step?

Does a kid who's yet to win a single major title deserve this kind of persistent attention on a parameter as fatuous as his Elo rating?

Elo ratings are not scores, and professional aren't competing to win the highest Elo rating. They compete to win tournaments, to win titles, to take home that shiny trophy, that nice chunk of cash, and all that prestige that comes with being a champion. The bigger the tournament, the greater the prize and prestige.

Until Shin wins a major title (or two), please kindly keep the Elo updates to a minimum. Come to think of it, instead of Elo updates, it's far better to talk about Shin's win streaks when they occur or when Shin wins against Ke Jie, which rarely happens.

Or feel free to ignore my rant and do whatever you wish. I freely admit that I'm a curmudgeon. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #34 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:31 am 
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AloneAgainstAll wrote:
... BTW, who decide which international tournaments are major or not?

TTBOMK, there is no formal group that decides. There seems to be a general consensus at https://senseis.xmp.net/?BigTitles#toc3

For those who don't want to follow the link:
Sensei's Library wrote:
Bailing Cup
Chunlan Cup
Ing Cup
LG Cup
Mlily Cup
Samsung Cup


( If one were inclined to debate this, a new thread would be best )

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #35 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:10 am 
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Joaz, SL is out-of-date. I'd add the 2 even newer Chinese ones Tianfu and Xinao cups which both have big prelims, though the longevity of the sponsors remains to be seen. There's also the Nihon Ki-in's "World Go Championship" whose first 2 editions were small invitation-only events, but the 3rd had decent large prelims for 3 places of an 8-player knockout (Park Junghwan won all 3 editions, he beat Shin in the semis).

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #36 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:11 am 
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I just found one August-early September Go tournament schedule: https://translate.google.ca/translate?h ... rev=search

The 6th Kuksu Mountains Cup will be in Korea Aug 3-5, I remembered it is a fast game / team tournament? The prize money should be similar to the Asian TV Cup;

Chinese Qisheng Title Finals will be Aug 2-7;

There will be an invitational tournament called the 9th World Go Submit Aug 14-15. I believe it should be something like Ke Jie vs Park or Shin;

2019 World Pair Go will be in Japan Aug 18-21;

Also, Samsung Cup World Masters will be in Korea from Aug 29-Sep 7. Seems it is a single elimination to the finals this year and we can see the finals from Sep 4-6... Shin may have a chance to fulfill his dreams in his recent good forms. I will go to the KPMC in another city Aug 31 to Sep 5, not sure if we will get chance to watch the world masters.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #37 Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:15 pm 
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ewan1971 wrote:
In all seriousness, the constant stream of updates on every tiny increase in Shin's Elo rating is a bit much.


I assume you are talking about my updates, so I am going to reply. First of all, feel free to ignore posts you don't care about. There are some people whose posts I don't like and I simply ignore them.

Second of all, I am posting the updates because it seems to be the only way to know what is the high point achieved by a certain player. I am curious to know even if you are not. I would like to know the exact high point for Ke Jie, but since nobody bothered to keep track of it, nobody knows what that high point was. And all of this is because the rating system tends to go back and change the ratings from 6 months ago.

So without my constant updates, we wouldn't know a year from now what his high point was. And since you mentioned it, here is another: on Aug 2, 2019 there is a new high point of 3703.


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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #38 Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:55 pm 
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silviu22 wrote:
I am posting the updates because it seems to be the only way to know what is the high point achieved by a certain player. I am curious to know even if you are not.

If that were the case, then wouldn't it have been better to open a thread dedicated to the highest Elo rating, regardless of who has achieved it? Or are you going to open up a new thread for each player who has achieved a new high in Elo?

silviu22 wrote:
...it seems to be the only way to know what is the high point achieved by a certain player...

No, it's not the only way; it only seems that way to you. It's widely known that Goratings tracks Elo for individual players. Here are some examples:

Shin Jinseo: https://www.goratings.org/en/players/1313.html

Park Junghwan: https://www.goratings.org/en/players/1090.html

Ke Jie: https://www.goratings.org/en/players/1195.html


silviu22 wrote:
I would like to know the exact high point for Ke Jie, but since nobody bothered to keep track of it, nobody knows what that high point was. And all of this is because the rating system tends to go back and change the ratings from 6 months ago.

I know that you would like to know, but why presume that everybody else would like to know as well? Furthermore, why presume that nobody knows what that high point was? Have you checked out this link?

https://www.goratings.org/en/history/

That link contains all the latest and the greatest in Elo ratings. Do you really think there is truly a need to manually update us each time Shin or someone else manages to go up a few points over the previous record?

silviu22 wrote:
So without my constant updates, we wouldn't know a year from now what his high point was. And since you mentioned it, here is another: on Aug 2, 2019 there is a new high point of 3703.

You think much too highly of your constant updates. Again, see the link below. It's not a secret.

https://www.goratings.org/en/history/

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #39 Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:57 pm 
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ewan, in your metamorphosis from an onion, you seem to have forgotten that goratings retroactively changes ratings. So whilst Shin might be 3703 now on the 3rd August 2019, if he loses some games in the future his rating for today can change, so e.g. if on 31st August we look back in his history page it could show his rating on 3rd August as 3699.

(Interestingly when a caterpillar metamorphosises into a butterfly, despite being broken down into a gloop it can retain memories: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... periences/)


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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo
Post #40 Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:09 pm 
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</admin>
Having a thread about a particular pro player of interest in the Professionals section of the forum, and making posts about that player's rating is well within the rules of this forum.

But:
https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1006 wrote:
9. Multiple Accounts
Do not create multiple accounts. Do not create new accounts to circumvent moderator action, conceal your identity, or for other purposes. Additional accounts may be permitted for technical reasons - please contact a moderator or admin beforehand if you believe this applies to you.

</admin>


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