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 Post subject: Re: Terminological inexactitudes
Post #21 Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:08 am 
Gosei

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sente/gote, tactics, attack, lack of bases, danger of being bitten in the bum, confusion, fashion, joseki books, amateurs.


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safety, bases, prudence, patience, creating options, strategy, blocking, true control, initiative, pros


So much about birds ...

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 Post subject: Re: Terminological inexactitudes
Post #22 Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:14 am 
Gosei

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Gomoto writing a forum post: pincer

John composing a forum post: tsume

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 Post subject: Re: Terminological inexactitudes
Post #23 Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:36 am 
Gosei
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Hi John

Reacting on the two first long posts, the second one of which made a lot of sense to me (the first one too but the second one in particular). I think I can only say "yes" to the question in that post. That's too shallow, so "yes, probably you have come across an insight old pros already had and which we may rediscover through AI eyes, and may have to adapt our terminology so that it better articulates the inherent meaning".

It also begs the old question if language is at all capable of catching expert knowledge. Up until a certain level in a domain, language is the default, the best, a high performing device for captivating and transferring knowledge. But from a certain point onwards, it may have a detrimental effect, e.g. you catch the meaning of something in a term, and then that term gets deeply ingrained in the minds of all, and this makes it all the harder to correct the error. I experimented with "seeing sequences", staying close to the language of Go itself, rather than abstracting it (which is still fine) in an articulated way (which seems inevitable).

I came across a guitar video today, where the online teacher tries "chord tones" as a synonym for "arpeggios" because the latter term has gone to lead a life of its own and may prevent the aspiring guitar player to think properly about what they are: successive tones of one chord.

If that's what you meant and allow me my own tangent.


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 Post subject: Re: Terminological inexactitudes
Post #24 Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:04 am 
Oza

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Bill

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IIUC, by saying that a pincer is sente you do not mean that the player who pincers starts a sequence of play ending with the opponent's move, but that the opponent replies locally to the pincer, regardless of who ends the sequence. Another way of putting that is to say that the pincer raises the local temperature.


You're right to point up that I'm being (very?) loose in talking about sente, but here I don't mean it quite the way you understand. It is of course common that a pincer elicits an immediate local response, and then we can talk about sente and gote in the usual way, but - as you note - the pincer can often be apparently ignored. I say apparently because I think the pincer almost always elicits a reaction, and I include that in my view about sente. Typical examples beyond a local response include playing (or preparing) a counter pincer and playing ladder breakers in the opposite corner. That's all covered by your word 'temperature', I think, but that concept is not part of my vocabulary and I wouldn't know, for example, whether I would then be talking about local or global temperatures, or what the relationship between them, or whether we should be calling in XR. So I stick to "sloppy sente."

Also on ignoring pincers, I found the most interesting case to be the case in the lower left of the following diagram.



This is probably the strongest pincer, but ignoring it allowing Black A was a constant thread in the Genjo-Chitoku series. It also comes up in games by others of the same era. The discussions had to do with whether White can play A (ladderiferous), or does he have to play B - and, if so in either case, when? The debate then becomes about how near White can approach on the left side while still staying away from thickness, or can he just leave the stone in the corner as aji without living and thus strengthening Black, and so approach closer, that being tantamount to a counter-pincer? I'm not sure whether there were any clear answers, and maybe it all came down to style.

This is in many ways similar to the more extreme position (or variants thereof) in the upper right, which is almost a shibboleth of late-Edo go. This too was a hot topic of debate.

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BTW, these examples come from variations of a Genjo-Chitoku game, 1800-02-12a. According to Elf, they made it through the first 50 moves with only a few minor errors. Oven the past several weeks I have gone over scores of openings in the GoGoD database commentaries by Elf, and have not seen other players do so well before the AI era. :)


That has been exactly my experience, too, with the limitation that I have been looking mostly at Genjo-Chitoku and Shuei. But I have dabbled with other players. Lizzie/LZ has shown me fairly consistently that G-J perform well (i.e. close enough to merit a cigar) against the AI yardstick. I have pondered why, and the best hypothesis that I came up was that they had polar styles and so they could each play in a consistent way. When two players have similar styles (or no style!) perhaps some sort of interference occurs and knocks one or both off balance.

I haven't got round to it, but I'd like to test a further hypothesis - that Yasui Senchi (the "Great" one, aka Senkaku - not Chitoku) would perform well in AI terms because of his grand centre-facing style. Maybe someone else would be willing to do that?

Given what I've just been talking about, I think I'll risk taking the liberty of mentioning that my whopping big book Genjo-Chitoku is available on Amazon, and a wee one - Peerless Pioneer - on Yasui Senkaku is available somewhere (can't remember where, but there is also a German version, likewise somewhere). Good time to start planning what you'll be asking Santa for :-?


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, Gomoto, xela
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 Post subject: Re: Terminological inexactitudes
Post #25 Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:19 pm 
Gosei
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Given what I've just been talking about, I think I'll risk taking the liberty of mentioning that my whopping big book Genjo-Chitoku is available on Amazon, and a wee one - Peerless Pioneer - on Yasui Senkaku is available somewhere (can't remember where, but there is also a German version, likewise somewhere).


Peerless Pioneer (English version) is also on Amazon.

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 Post subject: Re: Terminological inexactitudes
Post #26 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:45 pm 
Gosei

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Handtalk is a battle of two minds in the first place. In my opinion the top pros always strive for not following the opponents will. We amateurs can always try to show our opponent that his sente move, is not in fact so much sente, as he would like it to be, by looking for the appropriate tenuki too. What he thinks is a proper tsume move, is probably just a measly pincer. That is the way I try to play go nowadays. We can have a look at the pro games and find many examples for this kind of moves.

Here is a nice review of a game by Shin Jinseo 9p and Gu LingYi 9p by Yoonyoung 8p. The game and talk illustrate the mind struggle that even spans outside a single game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTcVqvWwKOw

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 Post subject: Re: Terminological inexactitudes
Post #27 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:28 am 
Oza

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An interesting real example of the tsume vs pincer debate. I started a new thread elsewhere about shape in a position a little later from this game. There, Shuei had said a pro had made a mistake on move 24. Here a pro is making a different kind of mistake (he says) as early as move 15, which was Black's two-space in the upper right (and he'd also boobed on move 13, and White did too on move 9 - that's how hard the fuseki is!).



Black had prepared his 15 by making what Shuei called a pincer on the upper side (White jumped out in response). I think he chose that description (not as opposed to tsume but as opposed to no comment at all) because it was obvious from Black 15 (the upper-right side extension) that Black's intent (key word) was to attack the pincered stone.

But Shuei criticised both moves 13 and 15. 13 was premature and should have been a Shusaku kosumi in the upper right, as Black has plenty of room to wedge into the upper side even if White plays there next. We can therefore infer that 'attack' was not the idea uppermost in Shuei's mind - his intent.

Black 15 ought to have been at A, Shuei said. Stuff the pincer, stuff the joseki, stuff the attack. Focus on the tsume. Which was not Black A, BTW.

15 is bad because it suffers White's tsume, the triangled stone (White 16). Like me, you might think that Black might be happy to see White 16, as he can then get on with his original intent of attacking the pincered White stone.

But Shuei said that while 13 was a poor play in itself, Black ought to have followed its original intent, which was not really as a pincer at all (i.e. it was never meant to marry up with the two-space "joseki" extension on the right. Its original intent was to focus on the upper side. But on the LEFT upper side. He is not focusing at all on the lone White stone on the RIGHT upper side. Remember, White 16 for Shuei was a tsume, NOT a pincer.

Being a pro, even if prone to fuseki boobs, Black did indeed now switch his focus to Black 17 on the LEFT upper side, at B. We like such presses because we have read so many commentaries that tell us White will end up low and overconcentrated across the side. But Shuei didn't read commentaries. He thought for himself and he applauded White's response, which was to push up and cut with C to E. All of a sudden the tsume makes perfect sense, and we can see it really was a tsume at heart and not a pincer. A fight rather than attack. And that's another interesting dichotomy!!!

AI seems to lend some support to Shuei's views (i.e. he is within a margin of error), but a Black 15 on the right is preferred, only not a two-space extension but a one-spacer (or a kosumi kick in the corner). And Black's press at 17 (B), which Shuei did not comment on directly but obviously criticised indirectly via the resulting fight) ought to have been a vaguer move two spaces to the right.

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 Post subject: Re: Terminological inexactitudes
Post #28 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:49 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
An interesting real example of the tsume vs pincer debate. I started a new thread elsewhere about shape in a position a little later from this game. There, Shuei had said a pro had made a mistake on move 24. Here a pro is making a different kind of mistake (he says) as early as move 15, which was Black's two-space in the upper right (and he'd also boobed on move 13, and White did too on move 9 - that's how hard the fuseki is!).


Wow, there's a lot to this game, isn't there, John? BTW, do you mean :w10:, approaching the Black stones in the bottom left side at C-08?

John Fairbairn wrote:


Black had prepared his 15 by making what Shuei called a pincer on the upper side (White jumped out in response). I think he chose that description (not as opposed to tsume but as opposed to no comment at all) because it was obvious from Black 15 (the upper-right side extension) that Black's intent (key word) was to attack the pincered stone.

But Shuei criticised both moves 13 and 15. 13 was premature and should have been a Shusaku kosumi in the upper right, as Black has plenty of room to wedge into the upper side even if White plays there next. We can therefore infer that 'attack' was not the idea uppermost in Shuei's mind - his intent.

Black 15 ought to have been at A, Shuei said. Stuff the pincer, stuff the joseki, stuff the attack. Focus on the tsume. Which was not Black A, BTW.


With no komi, Shuei's recommendations may well have been best, simplifying the game for Black. Elf, which assumes a 7½ pt. komi and area scoring, thinks that :b13: is a mistake that loses 9½% to par, :b15: loses 3% to Elf's top choice, the kick at Q-17. IMHO 3% is within Elf's margin of error. Elf also thinks that :b15: loses only 2 pts. to G-17, one point to the left of Shuei's recommended A.

John Fairbairn wrote:
15 is bad because it suffers White's tsume, the triangled stone (White 16). Like me, you might think that Black might be happy to see White 16, as he can then get on with his original intent of attacking the pincered White stone.

But Shuei said that while 13 was a poor play in itself, Black ought to have followed its original intent, which was not really as a pincer at all (i.e. it was never meant to marry up with the two-space "joseki" extension on the right. Its original intent was to focus on the upper side. But on the LEFT upper side. He is not focusing at all on the lone White stone on the RIGHT upper side. Remember, White 16 for Shuei was a tsume, NOT a pincer.

Being a pro, even if prone to fuseki boobs, Black did indeed now switch his focus to Black 17 on the LEFT upper side, at B. We like such presses because we have read so many commentaries that tell us White will end up low and overconcentrated across the side. But Shuei didn't read commentaries. He thought for himself and he applauded White's response, which was to push up and cut with C to E. All of a sudden the tsume makes perfect sense, and we can see it really was a tsume at heart and not a pincer. A fight rather than attack. And that's another interesting dichotomy!!!

AI seems to lend some support to Shuei's views (i.e. he is within a margin of error), but a Black 15 on the right is preferred, only not a two-space extension but a one-spacer (or a kosumi kick in the corner). And Black's press at 17 (B), which Shuei did not comment on directly but obviously criticised indirectly via the resulting fight) ought to have been a vaguer move two spaces to the right.


For reference, here are a couple of Elf's recommended variations. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Attack.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . X . 1 . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b17: makes a small base and attacks the :wc: stones. :w18: protects the top left and attacks the :bc: stone. Then ;b19: continues the attack on the :wc: stones.

Elf thinks that :w14: in the game is a mistake, losing 9½% to :w14: in the next diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Press
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 0 . 5 . . X . 6 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 8 . 7 . 9 . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w24: = a

Elf likes the press, no surprise. After :b17: :w18: is a pincer. :b19: makes a small base, and the fight continues. White has managed to complicate the game. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Press
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 5 9 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X 3 4 6 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf thinks that :b13: should play the press in the top left corner. Then White pushes and cuts, leading to a fight.

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