It is currently Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:55 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #1 Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:32 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 308
Location: Deutschland
Liked others: 269
Was liked: 126
Rank: EGF 4 kyu
What do you make of this:

Quote:
"With the debut of AI in Go games, I've realized that I'm not at the top even if I become the number one through frantic efforts," Lee told Yonhap News Agency this week. "Even if I become the number one, there is an entity that cannot be defeated."


Source: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/11/2 ... up_271119/

I know it's a quote out of context and one that would have been translated but it does seem like he's saying that there's no longer any point in trying to be the strongest human -- on the surface of things, at least. That seems like a very odd note to choose when you retire -- particularly if you were one of the all time great players of the game.

Didn't he also adopt very A.I.-like moves in his own games, immediately following his match against AlphaGo, and, indeed, win quite a bit with those new ideas?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #2 Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:51 am 
Judan

Posts: 6362
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 369
Was liked: 3468
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
See also https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 06#p251006

There's now 50 humans stronger than Lee Sedol on goratings, so the fact there is a computer beyond the top human doesn't really seem that relevant, other than perhaps reducing his motivation (but even if he was motivated could he regain his strength?). In the 21st century a top player no longer being so strong when he is 36 is totally normal, AI revolution or not; in fact for Lee to still be in the top 5 players in the world in 2016 in his 30s was quite remarkable in this age of professional go dominated by players in their early 20s or even younger. He's also had various disputes with the KBA so whilst the "AI bumps off human master" story might be nice for the casual reader I don't think it's particularly accurate.

Charlie wrote:
Didn't he also adopt very A.I.-like moves in his own games, immediately following his match against AlphaGo, and, indeed, win quite a bit with those new ideas?

No, I would say he has not embraced AI style moves in his games as much as other top players, and after the AlphaGo match he won 9 games in a row, 5 of which were against top pros and the rest lower pros like Andy Liu who he could beat in his sleep. He has had several longer win streaks in his career so that wasn't particularly remarkable.


This post by Uberdude was liked by 4 people: Bonobo, Charlie, dfan, Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #3 Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:24 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 413
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Liked others: 162
Was liked: 203
Rank: Australian 2 dan
GD Posts: 200
I'm surprised that I keep hearing this sentiment from go players. (In Lee Sedol's case it may not be the full story, but I've heard similar words from others.) Human chess players were overtaken by computers more than 20 years ago, and the chess scene is still alive and well. And we don't see Olympic runners quitting just because they can't go faster than motorbikes.


This post by xela was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, Charlie
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #4 Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:31 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8991
Liked others: 1518
Was liked: 1539
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Lee Sedol isn't only retiring because of computers, though, a lot of people seem to be taking it that way. Last spring he already mentioned that he'd retire before the end of 2019, and at that time, the tone was more focused toward the younger human players he'd have a hard time keeping up with. He's also butt heads with the KBA in the past, so it's not just about playing go. And then there's also his family, which he can spend more time with now.

_________________
be immersed


This post by Kirby was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #5 Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:15 am 
Beginner
User avatar

Posts: 16
Location: usa
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 0
Rank: 10k
Mr. Sedol looks young. is he moving to a different career or becoming only a family man?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #6 Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:47 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 68
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 30
Was liked: 5
Rank: OGS 11 kyu
OGS: Maharani
Allen wrote:
Mr. Sedol


In Asian names, the family name comes first. Sedol is Mr. Lee's given name :)


This post by Maharani was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #7 Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:48 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2226
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2095
Was liked: 1257
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
xela wrote:
I'm surprised that I keep hearing this sentiment from go players. (In Lee Sedol's case it may not be the full story, but I've heard similar words from others.) Human chess players were overtaken by computers more than 20 years ago, and the chess scene is still alive and well. And we don't see Olympic runners quitting just because they can't go faster than motorbikes.

There may well be any number of chess players who gave up or lost motivation with the rise of computers but we don't hear from/about them anymore. It's the same reason the stock market and Las Vegas seem to be full of winners. The losers DO "go gentle into that good night".

If Lee Sedol really does disappear from the Go world (which I personally doubt, he seems too energetic for that), it's the young stars who remain and successfully adapt that will define the response to the bots.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


This post by ez4u was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #8 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:26 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8991
Liked others: 1518
Was liked: 1539
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
I saw an interview with Lee Sedol where they chat a bit about his retirement. Indeed, there are various reasons for his retirement, but AI does seem to be a strong one. It’s difficult to capture the entire sentiment of the interview (I don’t want to misrepresent due to my imperfect Korean), but I can say that it may be difficult to understand the perspective of a top pro as an amateur. To us, we can enjoy go as a hobby. We want to win and improve, but it’s not the end of the world if we lose - certainly not if we aren’t number one.

But to some pros out there, being number one in the world has a lot more importance than any of us will ever understand. And apparently, some of that meaning is lost with computers, at least for some pros.

Before, I had some feeling that Lee Sedol would be back in a few months. Now, I think he’s gone as a pro go competitor for good.

_________________
be immersed


This post by Kirby was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, ez4u
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #9 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:04 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 413
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Liked others: 162
Was liked: 203
Rank: Australian 2 dan
GD Posts: 200
ez4u wrote:
There may well be any number of chess players who gave up or lost motivation with the rise of computers but we don't hear from/about them anymore. It's the same reason the stock market and Las Vegas seem to be full of winners. The losers DO "go gentle into that good night".

Indeed this might happen at some levels of the game, but in chess it's not visible at the level of recent world no. 1s quitting and citing AI as a principal reason. Chess's watershed moment was in 1997, but the top players of that year all kept going for some time afterwards.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #10 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:32 am 
Oza

Posts: 2481
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 3588
Quote:
Indeed this might happen at some levels of the game, but in chess it's not visible at the level of recent world no. 1s quitting and citing AI as a principal reason. Chess's watershed moment was in 1997, but the top players of that year all kept going for some time afterwards.


Chess may not be a reliable comparison here. Top players there can continue for a long time because they can bulk out their tournament scores with easy draws. Go players can't. Most lucrative chess tournaments are invitation events with the RSVPs going to chess players. The go equivalent is veteran's tournaments which feature very few games (e.g. the recent Yongzi cup with just four players, so two games max.) and so not much in the way of game fees. In normal go tournaments they have to work their way up through preliminaries armed with an industrial strength fly swatter to skelp the teeming brats away.

Yi Se-tol is at an age now where he is on the cusp of being a veteran. In Korea, in particular, veterans have already been squeezed out of tournaments almost completely (viz. Yi Ch'ang-ho and Yu Ch'ang-hyeok. I imagine they all sit there in dread as they see hordes of young players coming up behind them, only now they are armed with the latest AI research.

The older players can do the research as well, of course, but what you lose as you get older is not brain power or knowledge - indeed you can even feel you are improving in that regard. What you lose is mental energy.

So, even without knowing what's going through Yi Se-tol's mind, I can easily imagine he sees a bleak future even without AI to rub salt in the wounds. And I'm afraid I have to tell him it only gets worse, as the bits start dropping off...

On the other hand, I was Scottish dancing last week with a 90-year-old lady. It's pretty vigorous, balls-of the-feet stuff, three hours at a time. She told me the only trouble was getting out of the bed in the mornings. I recognised the sentiment. In the evenings you get to meet real humans with real names, not bots, and that's enough to warm the cockles of your cold, cold heart.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #11 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:46 am 
Judan

Posts: 6362
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 369
Was liked: 3468
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
And I didn't even need to get out of bed to write this post!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #12 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:57 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 413
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Liked others: 162
Was liked: 203
Rank: Australian 2 dan
GD Posts: 200
Right. Plenty of reasons why go players may reasonably want to call it a day before turning 40, while their chess counterparts can happily (?) compete into their 60s. I just think "AI ruined it for me" isn't the real story here.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #13 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:45 am 
Judan

Posts: 6362
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 369
Was liked: 3468
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
In one of his videos Blackie aka Kim Seungjun 9p mentioned Lee's retirement. He said the the #1 reason was the KBA/Pro association dispute stuff, but as Lee didn't want to expand on that when asked in an interview he wouldn't either (and also he's an interested party so it pays to be diplomatic). #2 was not being the top player anymore and AI at the top theme.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #14 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:17 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8991
Liked others: 1518
Was liked: 1539
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Indeed this might happen at some levels of the game, but in chess it's not visible at the level of recent world no. 1s quitting and citing AI as a principal reason. Chess's watershed moment was in 1997, but the top players of that year all kept going for some time afterwards.

In Korea, in particular, veterans have already been squeezed out of tournaments almost completely (viz. Yi Ch'ang-ho and Yu Ch'ang-hyeok. I imagine they all sit there in dread as they see hordes of young players coming up behind them, only now they are armed with the latest AI research.


I generally agree with the sentiment that, all other things being equal, it can get tougher to win regularly as you get older. That being said, Lee Changho still seems to have some gumption - he just won some international tournament (the Baoshan International Go Masters?? --> https://sports.v.daum.net/v/20191226232454811). Granted, it's not like it's a big, widely known tournament, but at least it tells me that Lee Changho's career isn't totally over, yet.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #15 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:24 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 800
Liked others: 61
Was liked: 274
Quote:
Lee Changho still seems to have some gumption - he just won some international tournament (the Baoshan International Go Masters


This is a senior tournament. The players were Lee Changho, Takao Shinji, Chang Hao, Ma Xiaochun.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #16 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:51 am 
Oza

Posts: 2481
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 3588
Quote:
I generally agree with the sentiment that, all other things being equal, it can get tougher to win regularly as you get older. That being said, Lee Changho still seems to have some gumption - he just won some international tournament (the Baoshan International Go Masters?? --> https://sports.v.daum.net/v/20191226232454811). Granted, it's not like it's a big, widely known tournament, but at least it tells me that Lee Changho's career isn't totally over, yet.


This is precisely the Yongzi Cup I referred to (played at the Yongzi Qiyuan in Baoshan). Just four wonderful players, but all yesterday's men, and there by invitation rather than current grading.

Nice to see you using a good Scots word, but I don't see what gumption has to do with Yi Ch'ang-ho's victory. I've noticed it being misused before and I've wondered if it's being confused with Japanese ganbatte. Gumption is basically our Scots word for common sense, though sometimes larded with a connotation of resourcefulness - or get-up-and-go! (Geddit?)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #17 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:07 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8991
Liked others: 1518
Was liked: 1539
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Gumption was the word I came up with, but maybe I'm misusing it. My vocabulary probably isn't as good as yours. Google dictionary says "shrewd or spirited initiative and resourcefulness".

What I meant to convey was that I think Lee Changho still has some energy behind his play, if he's still winning some tournaments.

I don't think Lee Changho will be the next world champion or anything - this was mainly in response to the suggestion that he's been "squeezed out of tournaments almost completely". This is just a recent example of a tournament that he played in - contestants being "yesterday's men" or not. Senior tournament? Still a tournament. Saying someone's squeezed out of tournaments almost completely could be misleading.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #18 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:52 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4311
Location: North Carolina
Liked others: 463
Was liked: 709
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
As a speaker of (Southern) American English, "gumption" is a folksy way of saying something like grit, determination, intrepidness to me. Perhaps it has a hint of stubbornness or even recklessness. Sounds like we got the secondary connotation and lost the primary meaning in the US. I wouldn't have thought to use it for describing a win in a go tournament, but I got Kirby's intent.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #19 Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:43 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 365
Liked others: 323
Was liked: 185
Kirby wrote:
I saw an interview with Lee Sedol where they chat a bit about his retirement.


Not sure if you are referring to this one, with English subtitles: http://kshow123.net/show/because-i-want ... ode-3.html - I think I found it linked somewhere on OGS. It is quite long, over one hour (it seems to be a TV talk-show).
He links a bit his retirement reasons to AI being so strong, in the beginning of the show.

I didn't have the patience to watch it all, but I did find some very interesting bits around the middle, when they bring a go board and Lee Sedol is talking about the famous AlphaGo invasion on the 3rd line, in game 1, and about his "miracle move 78" that won him game 4.

About the game 1 invasion, he said he knew that the beginning of the game was bad for him, but after what he thought are slack moves of AlphaGo, he thought he is on the way of catching up. But the invasion was a rude awakening, at which point he immediately understood he lost the game, and that's when he also realized how strong AlphaGo really is.

About game 4, he said he decided the play as patiently as possible, totally against his usual style. And he acknowledged that move 78 wasn't supposed to work, and even after AlphaGo's mistake he still didn't have confidence he is winning until several moves passed, since he was still afraid AlphaGo is plotting something.

Another interesting bit: he said he regrets now not listening to those who told him that AlphaGo is very strong (he doesn't give names, but I guess the only possibility is that he's referring to DeepMind people) and his mindset was too complacent going into the match.

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com


This post by sorin was liked by: xela
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Lee Sedol retires from the KBA
Post #20 Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:21 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8991
Liked others: 1518
Was liked: 1539
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Hey, Sorin...
Thanks for the interview link - I saw it on Facebook, but haven’t seen that one, yet. I was referring to this interview: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QiOEQ4xQSO8

I suppose Lee may be giving a lot of interviews these days. The one you linked may be more popular due to the interviewer - he’s a semi-popular actor in Korea.

Regarding not listening to others about AlphaGo’s strength, we at least know that Hajin kind of warned him that he might lose while she was having correspondence with him to set up the match. I think she mentioned this somewhere in English- maybe on her Haylee stream or something, IIRC..

Though, I suppose she might be considered one of the “DeepMind people”...

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group