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 Post subject: Shibano's lucidity
Post #1 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:51 am 
Oza

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One of the things that has given me most joy over the years is listening to a real expert who can talk to an audience of laymen and make his subject sound to them as if it was totally obvious, or something that they felt they had known all along. The reality, of course, is that what they have just learnt was neither obvious nor known to them (but that won't stop some of them from believing they know almost as much as the expert all along!).

We find the same phenomenon in go, but with the rider that we don't often get to hear real experts with that ability to talk "down" to us. Pros are usually too busy earning their shekels to take time out for us.

We are lucky to have one who does make time for us. Shibano Toramiru is of course a real expert. Just turned 20, he has won two major titles (Meijin and Oza) and, as I write (March 2020), has started successfully on is way to winning a third (the Judan). Despite that stressful and frenetic schedule, over that past year and a bit he has written a still on-going weekly column for the Go Weekly newspaper. You can tell easily that he wrote it himself. It is entitled Fuseki Revolution. It is about the changes wrought by AI. But there's nary a win rate or decimal point in sight, and he makes no reference to specific bots. Unless you follow the entire series, you would hardly realise he was talking about AI at all. The latest instalment, No. 55, for example, mentions the word AI once, and that's it.

That latest instalment, about the high one-point shimari, is a perfect example of his lucidity - his ability to say things that are unobviously obvious.

What prompted me to post here was not that particular instalment, since the whole series is of the same superbly high standard. It was simply that I watched a film last night called Nightcrawler. It interested me because of its journalistic theme - a stringer who is so new to the game that he doesn't even know what a stringer is (a freelance) who captures saleable video footage by being first on the scene at accidents and shootings and so on. He goes to a tv studio to sell his stuff. In one scene, where he has especially gory film to sell, there is the news director, her full-time professional assistant, and the stringer. The assistant is spluttering with moral indignation at broadcasting such images, whereas the news director is already two steps ahead ("no way we are not using this - we can pixellate out the faces", etc). I enjoyed it on the basis of "been there, done that", and given my background I found it brilliantly written. In go terms, the news director was a 9-dan. Her wimpy assistant (male, of course - it's 2020) was a 1-dan. Both pros, but worlds apart. There was also the amateur stringer in the background, soaking all this up and stirring up the pot by asking dumb questions. Which enables the news director to give some non-obvious but obvious tuition - just like Shibano (and he's only 20! - though, again, it's 2020, of course).

Shibano is talking at present about the four main shimaris, and the way he does it is to talk about the strengths and weaknesses of each of them, but in such a way as to lead up to showing why AI has shown a liking for the high two-space shimari.

Here I will mention just the high one-space shimari.

Shibano begins: "If I were to express the strong point of the high one-space shimari [ikkenjimari] in a phrase, it would be that "it is superior as regards potential for developing a moyo."

Obvious, right? Yes. But look at, for instance, Sensei's Library. This obvious fact is so obvious SL doesn't even think it worth mentioning, apparently, even though Shibano leads with it. Instead, SL leads with influence. Shibano doesn't mention influence (or thickness).

Shibano then mentions another strong point, that the high one-spacer is hard to reduce (which harks back to his treatment of the low one-spacer which is easy to reduce). Obvious? Again so obvious SL doesn't mention it. SL does talk about reduction of a moyo built on a high two-spacer, but that is muddying the waters by bringing in an extra concept - the antithesis of lucidity. Shibano talks about reduction (not an ideal word in English; keshi) of the shimari. A moment's reflection will alert us to the fact that it was reduction of shimaris was one of the first startling things that came out of the AI revolution.

In connection with such reduction, he mentions (as he does over and over throughout the series) the theme of 'over-concentration'. This has become a real buzz-word among Japanese pros. Strangely, the SL article doesn't mention it.

The SL article goes on to waffle on about the tactics (nor exactly the big idea here?) of the high two-spacer, demonstrating its weak points. Shibano says the high two-space "actually doesn't have any weak points as such."

With the true expert's eye for devastating simplicity, he gives a superbly simple tewari example.



Black has just played the square-marked stone. White had previously just played his triangle stone in the top right, against Black's high one-spacer. Many amateurs would have thought, "Great! I can defend at A and get a secure corner." Other amateurs might have thought, "Oooo, that's a bit nasty. Not sure what to do. Maybe pincer? Or leave it for now?" Whatever they do, there will be a worry in the back of their minds. But Shibano's reaction (as Black) is "Thank you. I can get on with my development." And by way of explanation he simply remarks that if the two triangled stones had not been there, would White have now played at his triangle? And would Black have answered with over-concentration at A? Of course Black would play at his triangled point. White has made him stronger, not weaker (the development potential outweighs the open skirt, Shibano says).

Proceeding, Shibano ponders how White should answer the high-two spacer. He mentions the "much-played" attachment in the following diagram, i.e. one that he sees a lot in pro internet play, where he spends most of his time. He lets others do the hard graft of data mining and doesn't use a bot himself. He just looks at the results as they appear in actual games. "Much-played," but SL doesn't mention it. Hmmm.



Shibano says A and B are the first thoughts but in either case Black is being somewhat forced. C goes against the idea of the development-based shimari. It ends up over-concentratedly defending the corner. That leaves D. (Note again the utterly pared-down simplicity of thought.)

It is interesting how he then talks about D.



Shibano says the sequence up to 13 is an example of a "recent joseki." That's it. He doesn't waffle on about whether it's "even", or about the (flawed) ponnuki shape. He doesn't mention thickness or territory, or who has sente. He doesn't even talk about his own main theme - development potential.

What he does say is that White's attachment (an AI play, remember) is about either forcing Black or overconcentrating him, and that D (the hane on top) is about Black thwarting White's intent. That's a word that comes readily to Oriental go players because of its associations with their martial arts, but I have found that western martial artists often find it hard to grasp properly - at least in that mode of expression. Perhaps in go too? (No SL entry, anyway.)

Now, Shibano does not use the word "even" about the above joseki, but I think we can safely assume that that idea is embedded in his thoughts somewhere - but not about the local position. It will be even in terms of the whole position (note, incidentally that White has used two fewer stones locally, and has sente).

Just as in haiku, what is left out is usually more revealing than what is put in. If this position really is even, i.e. simply satisfactory for both sides, Black has not really made proper use of his first-move advantage. So, digging deeper, he needs to try a wee bit harder. Think that way, and you can begin to see where the high two-space shimari comes from, and also why the low two-spacer might be preferable to the low one-spacer, and why both - because of being susceptible to overconcentration - might be inferior to their high cousins. At least in a bot's eyes.

Incidentally, while I may appear here to have been slagging off SL in particular, that was not really my intention. I find previous books on shimaris, even by pros, have similar defects - the main defect being that they are not by Shibano!. I chose SL simply because it will be the first port of call by many here, since books are so unpopular.

My own intentions were two-fold. One was a bit of "effortful practice" on my part to help ensure I understand Shibano, by re-writing some of what he says in my own words. Any infelicities are mine alone, of course.

Another intention was to show that the AI revolution can be, and is being, talked about in terms other than numbers and win rates. In human terms, in fact. But it seems we humans may need to re-appraise our previous thinking and terminology. I recommend Shibano as our guide.

Which, since I mentioned haiku and lucidity , reminds me of Basho's famous "May the moon be your guide" poem:

月ぞしるべ
  こなたへ入らせ
    旅の宿


Last edited by John Fairbairn on Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #2 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:21 am 
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Black has just played the square-marked stone. White had previously just played his triangle stone in the top right, against Black's high two-spacer.
Clarification question: the first SGF shows :black: ( R16 - P16 ), a high one-space jump. Is there a discrepancy between the SGF and the above text ? ( blue highlight mine )

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 Post subject: Re: Shibano's lucidity
Post #3 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:06 am 
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Human go players have to use concepts and modes of thinking that humans can do. The top AI players apparently use winrates to decide which move to make. From what I've read, calculating winrates is beyond human capability and it seems that no one really knows, in practical terms, what the winrates actually mean. New moves or ways of playing have been introduced into human go playing by the top AI players. If we want to use these new ideas we have to understand them in relation to whatever we already know and can describe. The material from Shibano quoted above seems to do this: one space high shimari is not about influence or thickness, rather it is about potential for development (moyo) and safety (difficulty to reduce). I am encouraged to see that concepts we are familiar with are not completely thrown out and many of the new moves fit into our ways of thinking.

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Post #4 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:32 am 
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Many SL pages have been written by people of various (incl. kyu) ranks, suffer from conflicts of opinion and by far too little time invested. So of course, they are far from the quality of exceptional teachers or carefully written books.

In the ABCD analysis, the fifth option, playing elsewhere, is missing and, at that moment, would contribute to global development and avoid being forced or becoming overconcentrated. Therefore, it should be studied even if then one assesses it as suboptimal.

gowan, of course, the high enclosure is also about influence and thickness, regardless whether somebody decides not to talk about them.


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Post #5 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:46 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
since books are so unpopular.


People don't like books? :sad:

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Post #6 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:38 pm 
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Quote:
since books are so unpopular.
People don't like books? :sad:
I like books very much. :tmbup:

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Post #7 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:55 pm 
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And by way of explanation he simply remarks that if the two triangled stones had not been there, would White have now played at his triangle? And would Black have answered with over-concentration at A? Of course Black would play at his triangled point.
SGF 1. input from zbaduk.com, a low-end engine: tewari -- the engine evaluates the low-shimari as the #1 choice, 46% for :black: ; the high 1-space shimari appears a 'mistake' by the engine, the lowest score of the nine candidates, a drop of 5% for :black: ( highlights mine ):
Attachment:
shimari.png
shimari.png [ 21.47 KiB | Viewed 18602 times ]
Games of Shuei was just dropped off by the post-person during this edit. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Shibano's lucidity
Post #8 Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:52 pm 
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Shibano is still writing articles for monthly go world and I noticed an advertisement for a book. I think this may be a collection of the older series.

Note that some of the bad reviews are people complaining about the shipping, with only one guy being disappointed in the content.

https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%B8%83%E7%9 ... 818206830/

I've put it in my cart to buy with a larger order.

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Post #9 Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:21 pm 
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Is there a more thorough index than the one on Kiseido's website? If not, I really recommend it to be included, it's the #1 tool a prospective buyer uses to know if it will be useful, in my opinion.

I was wondering if this book covers in detail the Flying Daggers joseki, and the 4-4 attachment to the 3-4 ogeima corner enclosure pattern. If it doesn't contain them, does anyone know a book that does? A book in English would be ideal, but I guess something in Japanese, Chinese or Korean would do, if it doesn't have a lot of text.

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 Post subject: Re: Shibano's lucidity
Post #10 Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:38 am 
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Quote:
Is there a more thorough index than the one on Kiseido's website? If not, I really recommend it to be included, it's the #1 tool a prospective buyer uses to know if it will be useful, in my opinion. I was wondering if this book covers in detail the Flying Daggers joseki, and the 4-4 attachment to the 3-4 ogeima corner enclosure pattern.


May I be allowed to suggest you take a step back and reconsider your approach? The cheap-shot answer would be that the clue is in the title of the book: Fuseki Revolution. From memory, although it does have a chapter on allegedly new josekis, it does not delve much into variations. Instead Shibano explores why there has been a change in thinking in the relation between joseki and fuseki. The relatively few josekis shown are simply examples of that. Fuseki is the thing to focus on nowadays. It is worth pondering on that.

Josekis (by which we must mean in this context simply corner plays, not regularly repeated patterns - the dual sense exists even in Japanese pro talk) have now to be evaluated in a different way. No longer is talk of profit versus thickness. The main criterion now seems to be speed and the initiative. Go Seigen made the first steps in that regard, but now we have a wealth of examples, and AI analysis to back it up. Shibano's book teaches that new approach. In a word, you can't understand joseki unless you first understand fuseki. By extension, you can't understand new josekis unless you first understand new fusekis. Almost all new AI-related books are on new fusekis. I've seen short articles on new josekis, but I detect that as being just journalistic pandering to amateur joseki addicts.

I mentioned in the initial post some of the new evaluation criteria (e.g. overconcentration and efficiency). Given your mention of Flying Daggers I'll say a little bit more here about the new strong focus on speed.

AI writers such as Shibano and Ohashi Hirofumi even tend to use the English word "speed" in their writings, just to focus attention on it. We also see this in the choice of new terms. For example we have the "Direct 3-3", but are you familiar with the Japanese Direct Attachments (dairekuto tsuke)? Of course you are, as you mention the 4-4 attachment. But that encapsulates the whole point. The standard English term tells us nothing about fuseki, and only mentions one joseki. The Japanese term tells us the thinking is about speed ('direct' is being used in the sense of immediate, or without preparation), and it's a plural term, so it's about an idea rather than a move.

The Chinese term flying dagger(s) is similarly useful and interesting. As far as I am aware, the term relates to the shape(s) in the upper left of the diagram below. In particular it refers to the two triangled moves. These are knight's moves. The Chinese for a knight's move is 飛 = flying. Flying daggers 飛刀 outside of go are, of course, a feature of Chinese martial arts, and ads for them usually show them lined up like this. I would suggest that the strongest impression we come away with when we watch fights in a Chinese MA movie is of speed and flexibility. Just compare that with Rocky and the ponderous "noble art" of boxing, where we indulge our obsession with pure power (thickness in go terms).

I have seen Flying Daggers defined in English as a complex variation much deeper in the tree, but that doesn't make sense etymologically, and the reference there, I think, is more accurately to a variation attributed to Mi Yuting (known in Chinese as 羋氏飛刀).

As another though more obscure example of the many new or recycled terms being applied to new go thinking, consider the Tiger Shimari (taigaajimari) shown in the lower right. It's not a new opening shape (it even appears in a Huang Longshi game, and Takemiya has tried it). But the name is new, and Ohashi has explained it as follows: "It is a large-scale construction move, and, while probing how the opponent will proceed, it develops towards the sides and centre." (Emphasis his. Tiger crouching in the undergrowth, ready to leap up??? But from his variations I think it may refer to the tiger's wide open jaws. I.e. come in, my deer, and examine my tonsils.)

Zoology is not my strong point, and so I feel to see how that definition has anything to do with Panthera tigris. But what is clear as day is his emphasis on the new buzzwords of fuseki talk: large scale, development, probing. I could easily add more because he goes on (in his 2017 book on New Fuseki Methods in the AI Age of Go) to discuss other "speedy" openings such as the 5-5 and tengen.

If you think about it, speed in go is about getting round all parts of the board quickly. That's even what fuseki actually means. You can't be focusing on getting bogged down in josekis. Sometimes you have to, of course, but when you do your modern focus should be not on profit or thickness or (worse) equality but on getting out of the bog as quickly as possible.

Shibano's book - colonic irrigation for go players - will teach you the much more "useful" art of debogging.



Since we are basically talking of New Fuseki here, that reminds of Hogmanay, so let me also wish L19 readers a Happy New Year, covid free and bog free.


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Post #11 Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:37 pm 
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By the way, apparently a new book (compilation) of Shibano's Joseki lectures is being published in a month or two (or more).

Not sure if this is the "destruction of common sense" series or something earlier.

Also, I could take a picture of the TOC if that would help but the contents are definitely fuseki. Variations of 3-4 4-4 and 3-3 and so on.

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Post #12 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:07 am 
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Quote:
Not sure if this is the "destruction of common sense" series or something earlier.


The meaning is rather "overturning conventional wisdom" but more fully Shibano's series is headed "Overturning conventional wisdom in Joseki and Fuseki". He spent 2021 (12 episodes) on fusekis (e.g. the high Chinese), and this year he has switched to josekis. But it's like no joseki book you've ever seen. All josekis presented are set in a whole-board diagram, and indeed he introduces this new 2022 part by saying he is now swtching over to josekis, but he also stresses that there is no local position without a whole position, and evaluation of a joseki is all about how it supports the overall position. That, in itself, is not new of course. What is new is the emphasis he puts he puts on it. This is reflected (he says) in his decision to show common josekis that everyone already knows. These are being re-evaluated rather than new bling-rich josekis being given, although it seems from the style that a few will appear incidentally in the course of the discussion, though without variations. So, again, the series is really about how to think about the fuseki in the new age.

His first example is again a quite brilliant foretaste of what is in store for 2022. I had thought of giving a diagrammed summary of it here, but one of my NY resolutions is to waste less of my time. I'm tempted to explore Garageband instead. But just so you know what I'm talking about, the following diagram will give a flavour.



Conventional wisdom has been that the slow extension to A is satisfactory for Black. But AI has shown that it's not. The sort of thing that is to be preferred nowadays is Black B. The evaluation of that line is nothing to do with profit or thickness but with the fact that Black gets speedy development. There is another line (not shown here but it's when White answers the shoulder hit on the third line) where the evaluation has the old buzzword 'even' but now it's part of a fuller phrase: an even running battle (gokaku no seriai). Because this is good for Black, White now often doesn't answer Black's initial slide at the 3-3 point and tenukis for speed. But that doesn't instantly make Black's slide bad. What makes the slide bad is if Black continues at the 3-3 point, and White answers that with quick development up the left side. But Black cannot afford easily to omit the slide and switch at once to the shoulder hit, because White's kosumitsuke at E3 gives him too much profit. The result is that the whole local area is still in a state of flux (i.e. there are no josekis yet in the strict 'oft-repeated' sense. Everything has to be evaluated in whole-board terms. Shibano, of course, says much more about all this - in his beautifully lucid way. A quick scan tells me he mentions AI just once, and not at all in the series title. It's implicit in the series, of course, but I think there's a lesson there for L19-ers. The human thought process is the thing to work on, and jigs may be better than strathspeys.

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Post #13 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:05 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
The meaning is rather "overturning conventional wisdom" but more fully Shibano's series is headed "Overturning conventional wisdom in Joseki and Fuseki". He spent 2021 (12 episodes) on fusekis (e.g. the high Chinese), and this year he has switched to josekis.
I prefer to think of Shibano as Destroyer of Common Sense. Yeah, I like that more.

By the way, what was the name of Shibano's original series that you wrote about in 2020? I don't have those issues but I think it was that 2020 series that became the book "Fuseki" Revolution 布石革命, right?

Shibano's 2021 series (seemingly) is being printed as "Joseki" Revolution 定石革命 even though the title of the magazine series states both fuseki and joseki. By the way, if anyone is interested, it's coming March 2022 and is available on Amazon Japan.

I'll get my Jan. 2022 issue soon, but if the book title "Joseki Revolution" is already taken, then what will they title the 2023 compilation book of Shibano's 2022 joseki magazine series?

#remindme1year

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Post #14 Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:54 pm 
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If you click to download a sample GoBooks' website (https://gobooks.com/index.html), there's actually a TOC in it. Here's a copy-paste of it:

  • Fuseki Revolution
  • How AI Has Changed Go
  • Copyright Page
  • Author’s Preface
  • Translator’s Preface
  • Publisher’s Note
  • Glossary of Go Terms

Chapter One - The reasons why popular openings declined
  • Theme 1. Sanrensei
  • Theme 2. The Chinese Opening
  • Theme 3. Mini-Chinese Opening
  • Theme 4. The star point and the small-knight enclosure
  • Theme 5. The Kobayashi Style
  • Theme 6. The New Kobayashi Style
  • Theme 7. The small-knight enclosure and the 3–4 stone

Chapter Two - Changes in conventional wisdom and new sets of values
  • Theme 8. The small-knight enclosure with the star point
  • Theme 9. Taking up position on the side star point after an approach move
  • Theme 10. Sliding after playing an approach to the star point
  • Theme 11. The double approach move, part 1
  • Theme 12. The double approach move, part 2
  • Theme 13. The one-space answer
  • Theme 14. Playing on the 3–3 point in an empty corner
  • Theme 15. Lifting the diagonal-attachment taboo: 1
  • Theme 16. Lifting the diagonal-attachment taboo: 2
  • Theme 17. Distant approach moves
  • Theme 18. The one-space high approach move

Chapter Three - Revolutionary new josekis invented by AI
  • Theme 19. Why did the hane at the head of two stones disappear?
  • Theme 20. Why has the pincer lost popularity?
  • Theme 21. Major reform in a basic joseki
  • Theme 22. The immediate shoulder hit
  • Theme 23. The dramatic evolution of double-approach-move josekis
  • Theme 24. A joseki that suddenly disappeared
  • Theme 25. Reevaluation of the attach-and-extend joseki
  • Theme 26. A new technique: the direct attachment
  • Theme 27. Is the splitting move slack?
  • Theme 28. The two-space extension: settling oneself with one move
  • Theme 29. The newest visceral approach to go: emphasize speed!
  • Theme 30. The 5–3 and 5–4 points

Appendix
  • How to handle the Sanrensei and other moyo contests
  • Recommended tactics to use with the sanrensei: 1
  • Recommended tactics for use with the sanrensei: 2
  • Recommended tactics to use with the sanrensei: 3
  • White’s newest countermeasures against the sanrensei
  • In the high Chinese Opening, overwhelm the opponent with your moyo
  • Expand rapidly in moyo contests
  • The Toramaru-style recommended opening!

Afterword
  • About the Author
  • Buy This Book
  • Go Books from Kiseido
  • About SmartGo Books


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Post #15 Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:12 pm 
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Joseki revolution was released last week. It's on Amazon Japan. I don't see any reviews on it yet. Surely same setup as the last book though since it's taken from the articles.

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