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 Post subject: Mid-XXth Japanese professional
Post #1 Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 5:50 am 
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I've posted three compilations on the Books section: Kita Fumiko, Nakamura Yutaro and Yasuda Yasutoshi. I was trying to find someone between Yutaro and Yasutoshi, but ... Does anyone know of a professional in the second row from around that time? One probably born in the 30s or so, the kind to have participated in the events of the time but not to have broken a new path or similar. A Yutaro, not a Kitani.

Any suggestions?

Thank you. Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: Mid-XXth Japanese professional
Post #2 Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 7:12 am 
Honinbo

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Ferran wrote:
I've posted three compilations on the Books section: Kita Fumiko, Nakamura Yutaro and Yasuda Yasutoshi. I was trying to find someone between Yutaro and Yasutoshi, but ... Does anyone know of a professional in the second row from around that time? One probably born in the 30s or so, the kind to have participated in the events of the time but not to have broken a new path or similar. A Yutaro, not a Kitani.

Any suggestions?

Thank you. Take care.


As a rule, Japanese family names come first. These family names are Kita, Nakamura, Yasuda, and Kitani.

It used to be said that you needed to become 5th dan to be able to make a living as a Japanese pro. Obviously 5th dans are not going to do too well in tournaments, but they can teach and run go clubs.

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 Post subject: Re: Mid-XXth Japanese professional
Post #3 Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 8:38 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
As a rule, Japanese family names come first. These family names are Kita, Nakamura, Yasuda, and Kitani.


Well... Yes... But.

As far as I know, the standard is to use family name first in Japanese and in romanji on names prior to the Meiji Restoration, but family name second when writing in romanji post WWII. I'm unclear regarding the time in between. I should have caught Yutaro and Yasutoshi anyhow, true. Sorry.

However, using a recent player, Sumire Nakamura, I'll observe that, for example Nakamura-shodan is refered here in L19, usually as Nakamura Sumire, but as Sumire Nakamura in the wiki (both the English and the German). History essays in English tend to use the standard I mentioned (usually including a note titled along the lines of "On Japanese names" somewhere in the introduction). For other examples, we talk about Shinzo Abe, not Abe Shinzo. or the names of the authors of said essays (check 'The Cambidge History of Japan', for instance). I don't know why Go circles choose to keep the old order.

All that aside... Any choice players?

Take care.

[Short on sleep; I might have to re-edit this later if it's unclear; sorry]

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 Post subject: Re: Mid-XXth Japanese professional
Post #4 Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 9:25 am 
Honinbo

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Years ago, pro tennis player Hu Na, living and playing in the West, got tired of sportscasters calling her Na and petitioned a court to officially change her name to Na Hu. ;)

BTW, I am looking forward to the first episode of Dr. Hu. :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Mid-XXth Japanese professional
Post #5 Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 10:50 am 
Oza

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Quote:
the standard is to use family name first in Japanese and in romanji on names prior to the Meiji Restoration, but family name second when writing in romanji post WWII.


No. The official Japanese standard is now to use the surname-name order in official documents. This was announced (I think) in September 2019 and came into force on 1st January 2020. This will no doubt spread to other areas of life in due course. In fact, it has already been working its way through since 2000 when a government advisory body first made the recommendation.

The thinking behind it can be found if you search on something like ローマ字の名前表記姓→名」の順に, but to put it in a nutshell, the government felt that the west should learn to respect the diversity in the languages of the world, having noted in particular that the Chinese and Korean governments do not kowtow to the west in the matter of names.

The western academic world has long been moving in the same direction, in the same way that it abandoned Wade-Giles for pinyin (Sun Zi instea dof Sun Tsu, for example).

The problem came about in Meiji times when Japanese wanted to be hip by copying the west. Western organisations such as newspapers compounded the problem by copying them. Chinese people came up with a better solution: two names rather than two orders. One name is their own original; the other is a western first name tagged in front of their own surname (a go example is Yin Mingming = Stephanie Yin). Koreans created a different kind of problem by not only adopting western order but also mispronouncing their own names (Lee Changho instead of Yi Ch'ang-ho, which derives from yi becoming ri if you were to read the original Korean name in western order, i.e. Ch'ang-ho Yi has to become Changho Ri/Li [lambdacism applies], or the equivalent for Syngman Rhee).

There are many good reasons for following the oriental order, but I'll leave them as exercise for the reader.

The orientals need to take advice, too, incidentally. Western go players, even professionals registered with their organisations, are routinely referred to by their "Christian" names as if these were surnames. E.g. Catalin instead of Taranu in Japan, or 자카첸코마리야 = Zakharchenko Mariya rather than Mariya Z.; 雷蒙麦克 [Léimēng Màikè; or just Maike] for Michael Redmond in China.
But even there there are caveats. One is that oriental usage varies. Another important one is that people in Europe often use the surname-name order.

In short, it's very messy subject, and there's much, much more in similar vein.

My advice is:

1. Follow the oriental order/customs

2. Follow the western experts but not news organisations

3. Don't ever trust Wikipedia or SL

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 Post subject: Re: Mid-XXth Japanese professional
Post #6 Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 11:42 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
No. The official Japanese standard is now to use the surname-name order in official documents. This was announced (I think) in September 2019 and came into force on 1st January 2020. This will no doubt spread to other areas of life in due course. In fact, it has already been working its way through since 2000 when a government advisory body first made the recommendation.
[...]
The western academic world has long been moving in the same direction, in the same way that it abandoned Wade-Giles for pinyin (Sun Zi instea dof Sun Tsu, for example).
[...]My advice is:

1. Follow the oriental order/customs

2. Follow the western experts but not news organisations

3. Don't ever trust Wikipedia or SL


First and foremost, thanks for the explanation. I do appreciate it.

The one about Chinese is one I've so far failed to understand. I don't feel Latin letters can do justice to Chinese anyhow. But, well, their country, their language, their rules.

About Japan...

If it sticks, it will cut down on confusion. That double standard has always confused me. Some times more than others, but always confused. And I think they'll be able to stick to it themselves. We'll see about the rest of us.

2&3... I did mention Cambridge University Press. Trusting Wikipedia is... dangerous. Then again, so is trusting L19 (or any BBS, for that matter). In fact, trusting a single source is... iffy. Even Cambridge.

Last point...

Quote:
All that aside... Any choice players?


I'm looking for a player not in the first line of "battle" but who was close enough to relate to it and to find kifu from.

Thank you. Take care.

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