It is currently Fri Apr 19, 2024 4:12 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: New josekis
Post #1 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 2:39 am 
Oza

Posts: 3655
Liked others: 20
Was liked: 4630


The triangled move in the top left first cropped up in the GoGoD Database this year, but was limited to a couple of instances by the same Chinese player, Zhou Zhenyu, who - it could be argued, was taking a weaker opponent lightly. In other words, ignorable.

But I see today it has cropped in the Heisei Panda Match where Mutsuura Yuta has played it (successfully) against no less than Kyo Kagen. Maybe it's been getting traction in internet games.

In one of the games by Zhou, he also played the joseki in the lower right, so we may infer he has a taste for trick moves. But I don't think he invented that one. It goes back at least to Mizokami Tomochika in Japan in 2017.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #2 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 3:07 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
John Fairbairn wrote:


The triangled move in the top left first cropped up in the GoGoD Database this year, but was limited to a couple of instances by the same Chinese player, Zhou Zhenyu, who - it could be argued, was taking a weaker opponent lightly. In other words, ignorable.

But I see today it has cropped in the Heisei Panda Match where Mutsuura Yuta has played it (successfully) against no less than Kyo Kagen. Maybe it's been getting traction in internet games.

In one of the games by Zhou, he also played the joseki in the lower right, so we may infer he has a taste for trick moves. But I don't think he invented that one. It goes back at least to Mizokami Tomochika in Japan in 2017.


Both are indeed bot moves. Oh, brave new world!

Edit: BTW, the slide in the bottom right shows up in the Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary, which goes way back. But not as a joseki. ;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #3 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 6:13 am 
Judan

Posts: 6140
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
The upper left with the black stones shifted one line rightwards I learnt in the early 90s from a joseki book written ca. in the 70s. I have regularly used this kind of kosumi. Its ideas closely resemble those for the shown position of the black stones. The lower right shape has been tried by some of my opponents during the previous decade but it feels like a trick play and is not easily developed by human players in the global context, so they hardly tried it twice.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #4 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 7:14 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 127
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 21
Rank: KGS 1d
I saw upper left joseki first time in game by FineArt (ver A) on FGS. It was 2 stones game (with 7,5 komi), but i dont remember against who, and who won.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #5 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 7:32 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
I seem to recall bottom right pattern in a game with Iyama Yuta from some time back...

Edit: I think it was this game from 2014: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=182194#p182194

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #6 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 7:36 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1581
Location: Hong Kong
Liked others: 54
Was liked: 544
GD Posts: 1292
What are the typical followups to these moves? It seems rather short to be classified as joseki, no?

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #7 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 7:48 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1810
Liked others: 490
Was liked: 365
Rank: KGS 1-dan
So much for: The second line is the line of defeat.

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #8 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 8:10 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
tchan001 wrote:
What are the typical followups to these moves? It seems rather short to be classified as joseki, no?


I think what is meant is that the move is a joseki move. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #9 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 8:54 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2411
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 359
Was liked: 1019
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Quick LZ review with a somewhat realistic opening.

In general I think the idea of the move is to make equivalence of the once space jump through the large knight and the small knight escape. In this set up the former is more important, as it breaks Black's development on that side. So we should explore other set-ups too.



It's related to https://senseis.xmp.net/?TaishaNarabi

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W [The simple variation|TaishaNarabi]
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O 1 d 3 c .
$$ | . . . , . B . b .
$$ | . . X a 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #10 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 9:22 am 
Oza

Posts: 3655
Liked others: 20
Was liked: 4630
It was interesting to me, too, to see that AI thinking has extended also to the 13x13 board.



The above shows the opening of Fujisawa Rina playing Tsuji Hana in the latest 13x13 pro tournament. There was a 3-3 invasion by White as well later, of course!


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #11 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 9:51 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 618
Liked others: 155
Was liked: 118
Rank: OGS ddk
KGS: Ferran
IGS: Ferran
OGS: Ferran
John Fairbairn wrote:
The above shows the opening of Fujisawa Rina playing Tsuji Hana in the latest 13x13 pro tournament. There was a 3-3 invasion by White as well later, of course!


Would you happen to know if there's a website for the tournament, with videos and/or sgf's?

[Sorry; keyboard/trigger happy; continuing]

Last I knew, there was a crowdfunding for a 13x13 pro event sometime mid-decade, but there were only two such events, then it disappeared. This one's official? I even seem to recall there's a 13x13 association... a rather small one [*].

Thank you.

[*] Still bigger than the Chu-shogi one, though, I believe.

_________________
一碁一会

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New josekis
Post #12 Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 11:36 am 
Judan

Posts: 6140
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
John Fairbairn wrote:
AI thinking has extended also to the 13x13 board.


How does your example show AI thinking? In 13x13 tournaments of the European Go Congress, the moves have been common. In particular, early corner stone attachments have been ordinary on 13x13 among amateur high dans for many years before neural net AIs. AI has merely caught up in this respect on the 13x13. (On 19x19, AI has introduced a higher frequency of attachments than was usual among human players.)

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group