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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #81 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:20 am 
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Elom0 wrote:
Suguichi Kazuko Sensei? Although Rui Naiwei was winning women's titles near her 50's.


Suguiuchi sensei, yes. Thank you. And I considered Rui Naiwei, but she didn't have the image I was looking for.

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That sounds like it should be an intro to a Cho Chikun movie: Tenacious: the Tiger of Go. Keeping the trend of intense one word titles for go history books or documentaries. A movie that begins with his tea. When AI can play THAT tesuji, then I'll consider them to have conquered go.


We have Invincible, Invisible and Relentless. We could have Tenacious. My French only allows me to wrestle with Motoki Noguchi's book series.

Take care.

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Post #82 Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:01 am 
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I was browsing Twitter and saw the term "Reiwa 3 Crows" (令和三羽烏) which caught my attention because this "3 crow" concept has been used to describe top players in Go history. Maybe the past crows are more famous and so these are the "Reiwa" (May 2019+) 3 Crows. Or are the other crows tied to a particular era as well and I just missed it. The "Tempo 4" are tied to the Tempo era but had 1 too many players to be crows (or the saying came later?).

The tweet (https://twitter.com/KK_joryu/status/1538773422561705984) reported on Sada Atsushi 7d (Kansai Kiin) defeating 2 of the crows, Kyo Kagen and Ichiriki Ryo. So who is the other crow? From looking online I see it's Shibano Toramaru. I guess no surprise there.

Do any of you have thoughts on the "three crows" concept and whether Kyo, Ichiriki, and Shibano should be included? What about Iyama still dominating Reiwa? Or is the concept of "3 crows" meant to suggest that they are rivals? Like how the "Tempo Four" were rivals of Honinbo Shuwa? Does anyone know the backstory of this saying? There seem to be a few Japanese legends (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89 ... D%E7%83%8F) and legends in other countries as well.

Personally, I think it's a bit early to have named Reiwa's 3 crows already. Maybe it's just less fun to name them in hindsight.

Sensei's Library has this list of other crows:
  • Hashimoto Utaro, Murashima Yoshinori and Shinohara Masami.
  • Fujisawa Kuranosuke, Takagawa Kaku and Tanaka Fujio. (When Tanaka died young, he was replaced by Sakata Eio.)
  • Fujisawa Hideyuki, Suzuki Keizo and Yamabe Toshiro. (When Suzuki died young, he was replaced by Kajiwara Takeo.)
  • Ishida Yoshio, Kato Masao and Takemiya Masaki. (Three Crows of the Kitani dojo.)

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #83 Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:45 pm 
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I guess that those 3 were the new champions that Reiwa brought.

Iyama was winning tournaments way before, but he doesn't belong to any group. He was/is dominating alone.

Before, we had the Heisei 4: Cho U, Yamashita Keigo, Hane Naoki, Takao Shinji, who won everything before the Iyama era.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #84 Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:24 am 
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The Gosei tournament is sponsored by the Newspaper Go Federation (新聞囲碁連盟): 河北新報、新潟日報、信濃毎日新聞、静岡新聞、北國新聞、京都新聞、山陽新聞、中国新聞、四国新聞、高知新聞、熊本日日新聞、南日本新聞、沖縄タイム.

I wasn't able to find a good news site on the Gosei tournament before so I'm looking again. I've seen a Gosei article from the Sankei Shimbun 産経新聞 (Judan sponsor), which is not even a Gosei sponsor https://www.sankei.com/life/igo/. So far I've found SGF commantaries posted on Pandanet https://wwwa.pandanet.co.jp/a/sanyo/ (via Sanyo News 山陽新聞) and the same from Hokkoku news (北國新聞) https://web.hokkoku.co.jp/pandanet/.

Does anyone know of any better news coverage of the Gosei? Maybe too much to ask since it's a group of smaller papers but I'm looking for something that includes background on the match and interviews with the players. Like this article on Game 7 of the Kisei match from Yomiuri describing the player's visit to the temple : https://www.yomiuri.co.jp/igoshougi/kis ... YT8T50063/

I get that Game 1 and 2 of the Gosei don't have interesting locations. But Game 3 will be in a scenic location at a fancy hotel.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #85 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:21 am 
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There was a stream by the nihonkiin on their YouTube channel on game 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj9-JQH1P_k

For game 2 there is also a scheduled stream:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj9-JQH1P_k

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Post #86 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:40 am 
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joachim wrote:
There was a stream by the nihonkiin on their YouTube channel on game 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj9-JQH1P_k

For game 2 there is also a scheduled stream:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj9-JQH1P_k

Thanks for the links joachim. I do know of these streams by the Nihon Kiin and they are very well done. And I know that sometimes this channel/stream will show a short video with scenery and interviews during the lunch break. But I am looking for news articles having the interviews, background, and photos for the Gosei tournament. I saw some coverage by the bigger (my assumption) newspapers but I was expecting more. My assumption again, but I would except the sponsors to have exclusive rights to some photos and interviews.


I'm not sure if anyone is interested but I'll copy my other saved notes and websites here:

Tournament: 棋聖 Kisei https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/kisei/archive.html
Sponsor: 読売新聞 Yomiuri Shimbun https://www.yomiuri.co.jp/igoshougi/
Timeline: Jan-Mar
Title Holder: 一力 遼 九段 Ichiriki Ryo 9 dan

十段 Judan https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/jyudan/archive.html
産経 新聞 Sankei Shimbun https://www.sankei.com/life/igo/
Mar-Apr
許 家元 八段 Kyo Kagen 8 dan

本因坊 Honinbo https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/honinbo/archive.html
毎日 新聞 Mainichi Shimbun https://mainichi.jp/honinbo/2022 (NOTE: you can change the date in the URL)
May-July
井山裕太 九段 Iyama Yuta 9 dan

碁聖 Gosei https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/gosei/archive.html
新聞囲碁連盟 Newspaper Go Federation (???)
Jun-Aug
井山裕太 九段 Iyama Yuta 9 dan

名人 Meijin https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/meijin/archive.html
朝日 新聞 Asahi Shimbun https://www.asahi.com/igo/
Aug-Nov
井山裕太 九段 Iyama Yuta 9 dan

王座 Oza https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/oza/archive.html
日本 経済 新聞 Nihon Keizai Shinbun https://r.nikkei.com/culture/go-shogi
Oct-Dec
井山裕太 九段 Iyama Yuta 9 dan

天元 Tengen https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/tengen/archive.html
新聞三社連合 Three Newspaper Company http://tengen.live-go.net/
Oct-Dec
関 航太郎 七段 Seki Koutarou 7 dan


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #87 Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:37 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4I1c9OcT7M
Wow -- Game 2 of the Gosei title match was pretty wild. Is this 6 title match games in a row that Iyama has won against Ichiriki? It's amazing how well Iyama can play and pull off these wins. Especially against Ichiriki. I really thought Ichiriki was catching up to him.

I picked up his 7 Crown book from MyNavi/"Go People Books" (Igojin? bukksu). I haven't gone through it took much but he does have self-commentary.

By the way, Ida Atsushi gave commentary on this game. He usually dooes well in the tournaments but I haven't seen him on video much. I think one game months ago and then this is the first commentary of his I've seen.

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Post #88 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:03 pm 
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The other day I was looking through the tournament results and saw that Shibano Toramaru was on top of the Meijin finals 6-1 but there was still another round. Well, that round happened yesterday and it's official: Shibano, winner of the 44th Meijin title match, will challenge Iyama Yuta in the 47th match.

The venues are already listed for the match. Many of the venues are the same as last year when Ichiriki Ryo challenged Iyama. However, one hotel is noticeably absent. Perhaps they were only willing to host Ichiriki was the challenger but not Toramaru? I'm talking about hotel "Ichiriki" http://www.ichiriki.com/

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Post #89 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:30 pm 
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The Meijin title match doesn't start until the end of August but there is a preview next week: Iyama Yuta vs Shibano Toramaru in the S-league of the Kisei tournament https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujdEb-HTmgg

Next tournaments after these are the Oza and Tengen.

Shibano is playing Hane Naoki in Round 2 of the Oza main tournament today. Yo Seki won his 2nd round game in the Oza and will play Anzai Nobuaki. But Yo Seiki is not doing well in the Kisei S-league. The winner between Shibano and Hane will play Seto Taiki, who I'm not familiar with. But he's an Kansai player so it could be exciting for them. Maybe he'll get a live stream.

The Tengen challenger will be Ichiriki Ryo or Ida Atsushi. Ida beat Cho U and Iyama long the way. The game is not scheduled yet. There, Shibano lost to Murakawa Daisuke and Yo Seiki lost to Cho U, both in the first round.

I remember looking at Iyama's progression in the other titles before and thinking that he was not going to be picking up more the next year.

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Post #90 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:38 pm 
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CDavis7M wrote:
I'm talking about hotel "Ichiriki" http://www.ichiriki.com/


OMG! :lol: :lol:

I didn't know that they had played in Hotel Ichiriki!
At least, Ichiriki won that game. What about if he had won the title in that hotel?

About Taiki Seto: I really hope he wins his next game in the Oza, the next, and the title. Why is that? Because I have played him :D :D
Let me brag a little... it was ages ago. Seto was 19 and 5 dan, and he was invited to play in the Barcelona tournament. Also, you must know that he is a FC Barcelona fan. Everybody wins. He came to a club. I played him in a 10 people simultaneous game. Most of us, with 9 stones. I still remember how the game went, and the result: B+14.5 I had one picture, of course, but I have lost it at some point. But I don't forget.


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Post #91 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:56 am 
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There will be a video stream to cover Shibano vs Iyama in the 3rd round of the Kisei tournament S-league: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujdEb-HTmgg

This will be a preview since Shibano will challenge Iyama Meijin starting in a few weeks.

S-League:
Iyama 1-1 (last to play in Round 3)
Yo Seiki 1-2
Murakawa Daisuke 1-2
Takao Shinji 1-2 (beat Iyama)
Shibano Toramaru 2-0
Kyo Kagen 2-1 (lost to Murakawa)

----------

Off topic but I can recognize all of these names in kanji now. So does that mean that Murakawa is doing well enough that even I recognize his name? Let's see, his Kansai profile isn't as helpful in discovering his record. Looking through the list of tournaments again I must have seen his Tengen main tournament and Agon Kirayama Cup results. He beat Shibano then lost to Ichiriki in the quarter final (3rd round) of the Tengen. He lost to Seki Koutarou in the Agon Cup (who will play Iyama). Some of the Agon main tournament games are being broadcast online.

I read a bit more about Murakawa and he was one of the youngest pros, had a great record, and won the Agon, Oza, and Judan titles. I wasn't paying attention back then but I wonder if he was considered a prodigy. Apparently not enough of a prodigy because he didn't make the list of prodigies in the Ogawa Doteki book...

On the Tengen, Ida Atsushi took out Iyama and will be playing Ichiriki in the final this week to see who will challenge Seki Koutarou (who took the title from Ichiriki). It would be interesting if Ida wins. He is another player that was doing well a few years ago, plays in the main tournaments, but hasn't challenged a title recently.

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Post #92 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:22 pm 
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I wonder if he was considered a prodigy. Apparently not enough of a prodigy because he didn't make the list of prodigies in the Ogawa Doteki book...


Murakawa is most certainly in the prodigy class. At age 10 years 10 months, he became the youngest ever pro at the Kansai Ki-in (overtaking Yuki Satoshi) and then second youngest in Japan behind Cho Chikun. Sumire later overtook him, of course. Murakawa didn't get the same coverage because he was in the KK, not the NK.

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[Ida] is another player that was doing well a few years ago, plays in the main tournaments, but hasn't challenged a title recently.


He got married in 2019 (to Mannami Nao), and marriage is notorious for putting a dent in go players' careers. But he was promoted to 9-dan last week. A year younger than Murakawa, I think, without checking.

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Post #93 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:06 am 
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CDavis7M wrote:
On the Tengen, Ida Atsushi took out Iyama and will be playing Ichiriki in the final this week to see who will challenge Seki Koutarou (who took the title from Ichiriki). It would be interesting if Ida wins. He is another player that was doing well a few years ago, plays in the main tournaments, but hasn't challenged a title recently.


They just played.

Ida won, so he will challenge Seki Kotaro for the title. He is also the player who beat Iyama, so he really deserves this. He has challenges for titles before, but not for some time. Even so, it's good to see different names in the title matches.

Ichiriki, on the other hand, seems to be lacking something in the important moments. His next big event will be his first Kisei defense. A lot of time to train/relax/study/whatever he needs.

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Post #94 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:14 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Murakawa is most certainly in the prodigy class. At age 10 years 10 months, he became the youngest ever pro at the Kansai Ki-in (overtaking Yuki Satoshi) and then second youngest in Japan behind Cho Chikun... Murakawa didn't get the same coverage because he was in the KK, not the NK.
I've been trying to learn more about the Kansai Ki-in. I wonder how players choose. Maybe their "true sons of Kansai" (if that's even a thing), family there for generations, maybe have a grudge against Tokyo (if that's even a thing? I'm trying to find out). While maybe some other player is just living there because their parents are working there and they don't have deep roots.

I believe Iyama was in the Kansai region but went with the Nihon Ki-in's Kansai branch instead. Maybe he (his parents) didn't have Kansai roots? Or maybe they knew he would have better prospects in the larger Nihon Ki-in? For me as a spectator, I'd like to believe that they are separate "teams" and I think it would be fun to have Kansai players doing well in the tournaments. I'm happy that Yo Seiki did well in the Judan but the title challenge was a bit disappointing. It would be exciting if Murakawa did well.

----------

pajaro wrote:
Ida won, so he will challenge Seki Kotaro for the title... it's good to see different names in the title matches.
That's great news. I just went back and skimmed the game. I'm very excited to see more players competing for titles. Ida does well in the tournaments and he has been in at least one video stream recently. Checking his SL page, he challenge Iyama for 69th Honinbo in 2014 and he won the 53rd (53th according to SL :scratch: ) Judan against Takao Shinji but lost it to Iyama.

And now Shibano is in a good position to possibly challenge Ichiriki Kisei. I'm excited for that tournament.

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Post #95 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:17 pm 
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Of course the KK was born out of a branch of the NK, established in Osaka by the NK at the time of the 2nd world war. The great player Hashimoto Utaro was the founder and the KK became "officially" independent of the NK when Hashimoto, holder of the Honinbo title, was involved in some kind of dispute with the NK. As a result the KK was created. I would guess that talented young players in the Osaka area could join which ever they qualify for. It seems to me that there are stronger players in the NK than in the KK. Other factors might be which organization a player's teacher belongs to.

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Post #96 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:32 am 
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It looks like Shibano is back in top form. He dominated Kisei S-league and is in the Oza final round.

Shibano has a last Kisei league game against Yo Seiki and he will also play Yo in the Oza final round. Hard to decide but I will cheer for Shibano over Yo. I want to see Shibano's come back.


By the way, I saw a tweet from Nikkei linking their website on the history of the Oza tournament. Lots of pictures and it seems like a good read. I'll check it out later. https://www.nikkei.com/telling/DGXZTS00 ... 2A7000000/

This picture of Fujisawa and Kobayashi looks like it could have been taken 50 years earlier than it was: https://article-image-ix.nikkei.com/htt ... 504641a060

I guess this is post game, but here is Sakata just smoking at the board. It was just a thing back then (there's another picture of a cigarette at the board): https://article-image-ix.nikkei.com/htt ... 65f1783873

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Post #97 Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:06 am 
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John, you say that Murakawa Daisuke qualified at 10 years 10 months.

But both Sensei's Library and this page https://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/go/misc/progression.html say that he was born on 1990-12-14 and qualified on 2002-11-01. That's 11 years 10 months.

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Post #98 Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:34 am 
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That's my typo - or maybe I was too lazy to take my socks off. Should be 11.

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Post #99 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:14 am 
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Edit: Link to game video stream: https://youtu.be/DQjwDK_zh9Y

---------

Image

Shibano's back! Before the Meijin starts they had kenbun no yosu -- "inspection of the state of affairs." Inspecting the play area. I've seen videos for shogi but can't find one for Go. I imagine they check the fluffiness of the pillows, play with the thermostat, tap the stones, kick the tires--that sort of thing. Fujisawa Rina is attending and posted this picture. She's doing the Big Board. Cho Chikun is the ref. I see the 2 record keepers plus 2 more. Seki Koutaro is doing the net commentary but I don't see him. Maybe chatting with Rina.

This is the 47th Meijin and Shibano was the 44th, losing to Iyama in the 45th. Anyone have any predictions?

I won't predict but just share my hopes. I'm very excited to see Shibano back and I am cheering for him in this first match. I hope he starts strong. Though I do like to see Iyama still dominating even as he gets further into his 30s. Yet I would like to see Shibano's face in the list of title holders. But most of all I am just hoping that we get more than 4 games. 6 or 7 games is my real hope!

Above anything else, I can already be happy just because there is someone playing Iyama besides Ichiriki.

-------------------

It looks like the game will be steamed on the Igo Shogi channel, though there is no direct link at the moment (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-vtEQ ... exw/videos)

The players gave an interview as well: https://youtu.be/LJ8KsTF0o4U?t=741

Cho Chikun gives a hilarious speech (apparently, I don't understand it) as Kono Rin stands by. No wonder they always invite Cho to these games. Japanese Go is lucky to have a champion that is endearing and fun.

Attachment:
Cho.PNG
Cho.PNG [ 728.85 KiB | Viewed 4039 times ]


Last edited by CDavis7M on Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #100 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:22 am 
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Quote:
Cho Chikun gives a hilarious speech


Given the advert for Meiji chocolate behind him, you have to wonder if Cho has been over-guzzling and is in the throes of a sugar rush. Either that or he's auditioning for a part in the next Harry Potter movie. Rin is clearly wondering who the hell let Cho in the room.

Still my favourite story about inspecting the playing conditions is from shogi, when Oyama Meijin was playing a title match somewhere down in the far south. He didn't like the board for the next day, so told the organisers to change it. They had to get a new one from Tokyo via the overnight mail train, no doubt praying he would found that one acceptable.


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