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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #61 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:25 pm 
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pajaro wrote:
BTW, after today's game, if I am not wrong, Fujisawa will keep her seat next year too.

Only the semi-finalists keep their spot for next year. So Rina has to win one more game.

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Post #62 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:31 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:

I don't think this is correct. It is correct that Fujisawa was the first but that was in the Tengen in 2019. She beat Takahashi Masumi.


You are right. I made some research but I missed this. Being the same player, and with some bad translation, I made this mistake.

But the main point stands: it is not common for women to reach the final stages of tournaments, although it is happening more often. Fujisawa and Ueno at the same time is a turning point.

gazzawhite wrote:
pajaro wrote:
BTW, after today's game, if I am not wrong, Fujisawa will keep her seat next year too.

Only the semi-finalists keep their spot for next year. So Rina has to win one more game.


In the #59 Judan, Iyama Yuta skipped the first round, won in the second round and lost in quarterfinals. Same as Fujisawa, so far. He kept his place. Maybe because he has a big score, maybe because he lost to the challenger (and winner). But Onishi Ryuhei (who is playing this year again in the main tournament) lost like Iyama, and had to play another prelim game.

So... some right facts mixed with wrong research, and that's 2 mistakes in the same post.

:oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #63 Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:32 pm 
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pajaro wrote:

In the #59 Judan, Iyama Yuta skipped the first round, won in the second round and lost in quarterfinals. Same as Fujisawa, so far. He kept his place. Maybe because he has a big score, maybe because he lost to the challenger (and winner). But Onishi Ryuhei (who is playing this year again in the main tournament) lost like Iyama, and had to play another prelim game.

So... some right facts mixed with wrong research, and that's 2 mistakes in the same post.

:oops:


Iyama had to play a prelim game as well. He beat Ohashi Horifumi. The details are here (game 8 in the Final Qualifying section). 16 spots are through prelims, so only 4 players get seeded.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #64 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:12 am 
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Has anyone got the Amazon army photobook? It's got silly posed photos and cosplay. Like something you would find for a fundraiser or charity. I like this machine translation of the description "It is full of charms such as smiling faces of 10 people and cosplay photos that make you nervous." Like, ドキドキする?

Image

I wonder who would be in the Men's version? Coming soon I hope.

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Post #65 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:51 am 
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Fujisawa's Judan win against Son Makoto was a first in a way - it was the first time a woman has reached the last eight of major event. But what I hadn't appreciated till reading about it today is that she did it against a player who is in sparkling form: Son Makoto is on a score of 22-8 (and he's in the Kisei B League). However, he is only prosecco compared to Rina's champagne. She is on 34-11, which includes an 11-game winning streak.

But what I found most astounding was that of the 20 players who started the final section of the Judan, only five were 9-dans (and one of those, Iyama, has already been knocked out). Furthermore, only one of them is in Rina's half of the draw. That's Shibano, and he's young enough to be susceptible to the fluttering the eyelids tesuji!

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Post #66 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:23 am 
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@CDavis7M

Do you have the name of that photobook in text? I'd love to search for it but don't know how to replicate the kanji in the picture! Thank you!

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Post #67 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:33 am 
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Never mind, found it! https://item.rakuten.co.jp/nihonkiin/v0001/

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #68 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:42 am 
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MoxElliot wrote:

Yeah, that's the same page I found it on. I have not ordered from Rakuten. I believe they do overseas shipping but I could not find a definite price. Please share if you make an order from there.

You can also order from Rakuten using a courier service, like "Buyee" (https://buyee.jp/) which I have used before. Unfortunately, the shipping from Buyee is also expensive but I have an expectation of the price already: ¥1,100 in courier fees per order and ¥3,322 for the cheapest shipping for (2 hardback books in my case). Of course, there is still the normal shipping from the merchant to the courier. But that is relatively cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #69 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:33 pm 
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CDavis7M wrote:
I wonder who would be in the Men's version? Coming soon I hope.


I don't think it will be coming any time soon.

Men are serious players. I don't think nobody would even suggest the idea.

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Post #70 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:11 pm 
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pajaro wrote:
CDavis7M wrote:
I wonder who would be in the Men's version? Coming soon I hope.

I don't think it will be coming any time soon.
Men are serious players. I don't think nobody would even suggest the idea.
Well, I'm looking forward to it anyway.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #71 Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:27 am 
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When I saw that mockup of a men's magazine it occurred to me that I had no idea how many female professional players there are in Japan. First I thought if there are few enough that you could fit everyone in one pamphlet but that is not the case, possibly you could fit all the the relatively young ones but I didn't bother to check this. There 88 female professionals listed as active in Japan on this site, if you include the inactive list it is 102. The inactive list is players with too few games to be included in the ranking, but also seems to include new pros that presumably will enter the rankings soon.

I will grant that there are probably hundreds more professionals in Japan that are retired or on a long hiatus and would not be listed in such a rating list.

So basically with 88 active female players and a total of 447 active players then 20% (or 19.68680% if you like) of Japanese professional Go players are female.

It is kind of weird to only have such picture magazines published around this subject if you ask me :scratch: Surely it is normal to see female professionals in Japan, Japanese Go magazines and other media and so on. Then again it seems like there is much much more interest in digging up such content about female professional and I am not sure that is an indication that there are not such picture pamphlets for the most famous professionals in Japan.

It is a bit surprising if 1-in-5 of Japanese professionals is a woman, at least must be for people like me who mostly just glance over the brackets in the final tournaments.

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Post #72 Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:38 am 
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The GoGoD Onomasticon has entries for 500 females out of about 4,500 total entries. This covers all eras and all the main go-playing countries, but even so a proportion of 10%+ will probably surprise many.

Yet China can claim the first game by a woman as far back as around 1100, if we trust the attribution to the Lady of Black-Horse Mountain, but probably also the first female rules maven (uggghh!). At least we have a contrived whole-board seki in a Ming manual published in 1634 which attributes it to a "female immortal". Before either of these, we even had the girl go player in Tang times who inspired the Mulan legend. But, historically, China's record on accommodating female players has been patchy.

Japan can claim the first pro, Yokozeki Iho, in the late 18th century. But women there benefited more widely from the culture of treating go as a craft and a family craft at that. So if you were a male professional running a go school and had only a daughter, you would teach her go and pass the school on her to run. This applies even today. I've been to several go clubs in Japan run by women, though I have to add that the clientele was always 100% male. This was in part because female players organised their own clubs and still do. There is a rather big and long-running tournament scene for matches between these clubs, and the Nihon Ki-in reports on them. Nowadays there is also the more fashionable chain of Dream Salons where women can enjoy go away from the sort of grubby men who produce pin-up calendars.

One common reason older women play go in Japan nowadays is to avoid losing their marbles. There is a lovely manga from about 20 years ago called Hibi Goseki which is about a young girl, Sakura-chan, who runs a go club. This mythical club does have female members, and one of the first scenes in the manga is about greeting a new female member who says she took up go precisely to avoid going doolally in her old age.

There have been pro female tournaments going back over 100 years, and Nihon Ki-in tournaments specifically for women go back to the Women's Honinbo in 1952. But they have been allowed into men's tournament for much longer. In the 1930s Suzuki Hideko was playing in the top section of the Oteai, and before that Kita Fumiko was a big noise in the Hoensha (she had a high plus score against the men).

So, given all that background, and much more (e.g. Hikaru's creator is female; the Polgar experiment was nothing new in Japan, etc etc), it really shouldn't be a surprise if we take it that female go has a strong presence in Japanese go.

And it seems to be getting stronger. That's nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #73 Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:19 am 
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Go World seems to do a great job covering the women. Go seems like an activity that should have fairly equal representation, so it's good to improve the atmosphere around the game for everyone.

One part of Go that is underrepresented is the guys having any fun in their photoshoots. Only Shibano seems to like that sort of thing.
Image

----------

Anyone notice that actor from the shochu advertisements from the back of Go World?

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Post #74 Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:34 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
And it seems to be getting stronger. That's nice.


Judging from these rankings it appears Fujisawa Rina is right up there with the usual suspects from the kisei/meijin/honinbo final tournaments. Though I understand that these ratings are based on Glicko and probably follow the latest performance much more closely than elo/gor ratings. But it does strongly indicate that she could make it through to there like she did in the Judan tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #75 Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:17 pm 
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kvasir wrote:
Judging from these rankings


I don't know what rankings you are talking about. Perhaps goratings.org? Most official games are taken into account here.

Anyway, it is clear that Fujisawa is a top player amongst women, and also overall. She is young and improving every year. She holds most female titles, but hopefully, she will be challenged soon by more and more players. Recently, Hoshiai Shiho lost 3-0 in the Honinbo. The winner was clear, right, but it was a new name aiming to the top.

There are many new female pro players. Sumire may be the most famous, but she is not the only one. From time to time, I see new names. I'd like to know them better, at least by name. In the youtube broadcastings, sometimes they say the name of the record keepers (usually, 2 young pros), but not always. Add face masks and my (null) ability to remember faces...

The Amazon army sure is increasing their troops.

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Post #76 Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:10 am 
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pajaro wrote:
kvasir wrote:
Judging from these rankings


I don't know what rankings you are talking about. Perhaps goratings.org? Most official games are taken into account here.


I posted a link to http://mamumamu0413.web.fc2.com/rating/japan/ranking.html earlier. Unlike goratings.org this one appears to include all of the official games or at least a lot more than Goratings. For example 56 games for Fujisawa Rina up to the end of October but only 31 in goratings.org up to 28th of October, the number of missing games is often much larger.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #77 Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:16 am 
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This is looking to me like another attempt to impose numbers on go. Just as painting by numbers does not produce the Mona Lisa, looking at the go world through numbers misrepresents reality.

For women, in Japanese go, the reality is that they make a lot more from women-only tournaments than they do elsewhere. The opposition is much smaller, and not so strong. Women are also in demand as teachers (e.g. when big firms hire go pros for the staff). So that's where they concentrate their efforts. The same argument applies to Japanese male pros who don't pay as much attention to international go as many fans think they should. Japan pays better. As in most sports, a pro has to make his/her money while at their peak before the long decline sets in. The number of yen counts for LOTS more than number of Elo/Glicko points. This is especially important now that game fees have been abolished and pensions reduced.

Rina is in the overall top ten money makers but is nowhere near the overall top ten in go strength. She has good win-loss numbers but most of those games are against weak women.

Things are going in the right direction, but we are still in the foothills. That's the qualitative assessment. Rather starkly different from the quantitative 28-10 assessment of Rina's current official stats. Sticking with qualitative terms, there is definite improvement in her case, because she is playing more and more men, but on the other hand she may face a major career-break if she decides to have children. Kobayashi Izumi comes to mind. She also reached the top of the foothills before having and training Cho Kosumi. She's resumed tournament play now but is already out of puff, so she won't now be in the push for the final ascent to the summit.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #78 Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:22 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
This is looking to me like another attempt to impose numbers on go. Just as painting by numbers does not produce the Mona Lisa, looking at the go world through numbers misrepresents reality.


Maybe, such ratings are ultimately only an imperfect indicator of past performance. It does however like I wrote look like she is reaching right up there on this list with the players that qualify all the time for the final tournaments of kisei, honinbo and meijin. This is a very small group of 20-30 professionals that is on the very top of this and other rating lists, the gap from there to the top of Japanese Go is still very large. It is an indicator of past performance, anyway, so there is not much use in extrapolating how far someone can reach from the current point.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #79 Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:14 pm 
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Quote:
so there is not much use in extrapolating how far someone can reach from the current point.


As even us non-numbers guys understand, given the way the numbers experts disagree so vehemently and daily about what the Covid stats mean - and that really is a matter of life & death.

But I remain optimistic of at least an entry into a major league. The reason is that I think there is a cluster of female players who are closely matched and they will push each other on. If you look at any period of go history you can see that the peaks (as measured by fame) occur when there are at least two major rivals. We see the same thing in derby games in all sports, so that's no surprise.

The rivals I have in mind here are Rina, Ueno Asami, possibly a rejuvenated Xie Yimin, and one who is often overlooked: Suzuki Ayumi. She's already 7-dan and not yet 40. As befits her name she's a slow but steady developer, with recent success, and I have a hunch it may be because she married Rin Kanketsu. She's already won three title matches and been runner-up in four more. Her current record in Nihon Ki-in listings is 24-18 and she has won 4 out 5 of her last 5 games with men, I think. And we know there's more great talent bubbling up underneath this quadrumvirate.

If only Kobayashi Izumi could find her form again! She's 12-10 for the year but seems to be on a roll at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #80 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:52 am 
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The army has had some skirmishes these days.

Xie Yimin lost to Ida Atsushi in the final preliminary game of the Meijin, missing a chance to play in the league.

Sumire and Ayumi battled in the second round of the female kisei, with a win by 1/2 for Ayumi.

For both of these games, I made comments in other posts, so that's it.

A more interesting result, at least to me, is that Kato Chie beat Fujisawa Rina, also in the second round of the female kisei. Chie is one of those players who do not make much noise, but her record this year is 29/15, not too bad. This may have been an accident for Rina, or a glimpse that more and more players are fighting to get stronger.

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