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 Post subject: Re: Otake Hideo 9p retires from Pro
Post #21 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:25 pm 
Dies with sente

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John Fairbairn wrote:
The first thing to say is that your game record seems faulty.

Yes. I wonder where this 187-move version came from.

Now that the topic is Otake, earlier this evening I added seven Otake games not found in the usual collections. See https://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/go/games/games/WCont/index.html.

Last month I sorted my Honinbo Shuwa games (but have not yet resolved discrepancies between various sources). There are 596 Shuwa games in or near https://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/go/games/games/ancient/Honinbo_Shuwa/.

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 Post subject: Re: Otake Hideo 9p retires from Pro
Post #22 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:32 pm 
Oza
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Game 2 of the 1978 Meijin title, with my own unbiased comments, then amended with KG's insights

I'm of course curious again to know more about how the pros saw the game as being advantageous for Rin and where he lost the lead.
KataGo's evaluation is not so straightforward. Yes, Otake played two corner patterns which by today's standards aren't optimal, giving Rin huge influence to work with and turn into a moyo, giving an estimated lead of W+6

Next, the corner sacrifice/capture brings the game into balance again, where probably KataGo is more confident in reducing the moyo. At that stage, there's a double spike, because of the ponnuki granted but not taken.

Not surprisingly, Otake's reduction of the moyo is not KataGo's and Rin's lead goes up again. When he forges a ko in the upper right, White's up by 6 again. It looks like this is an instance of "lose a ko to win the game" but Rin at some point decides to finish the ko and let Otake live in his moyo, trading it for the corner. KataGo evaluates this as a mistake of about 15 points. Otake then doesn't capitalize as severely as KG sees opportunities, but he brings the upset to a safe victory.


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 Post subject: Re: Otake Hideo 9p retires from Pro
Post #23 Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:32 am 
Oza

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Abbreviating the Kido YB comments:
B9 is better at F15.
B15 is better at 16.
B39 is maybe better at C9.
W60 : 88 is more severe.
B79: 81 is maybe better.
B95 ends up painful. He had the opportunity to march into 97.
W120: 123 instead would not seem to die.
W130: 142 is more solid.
W194: with 196 instead he would not have lost.

My comment:
Quote:
giving Rin huge influence to work with and turn into a moyo

Thickness, not influence. There are good practical reasons for maintaining the distinction. E.g. everyone says "Stay away from thickness." I don't see anyone saying "stay away from influence."

Very abbreviated comments from Go Word:
W28-34: moyo strategy is unusual for Rin. Otake may have made him play it for psychological reasons (i.e. he do not play 17 at D8).
B39: much regretted by Otake (and others). W gets to strengthen his moyo.
B41: honte is L6 but B has to attack as W ignored 39.
44-52: standard settling moves.
W60: 88 is more severe.
B75: vital point.
W82: sacrifice. He gets ample compensation in the centre.
B97: as far s he can go.
B91: necessary.
B109: O17 is safer but not enough.
W118: he missed an easy way to live: N17. But several long sequences here missed by both players. Yamabe Toshiro revealed them. (Yamabe noted for excelling in analysing corner positions). But ko is adequate for W.
W130: greedy.
W156: regretted by Rin. He called it the losing move.
B163: the reason Rin regretted 156.
B170: big part of reason for dissolving the ko was that Rin was in time trouble.
B187: the last incident of the game. Careless. Should be 189.
205: careless; loses 2 points.
Overall the game could be split in two. Up to 102 Rin (W) was ahead. Thereafter he went to pieces, taking risks while in time trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: Otake Hideo 9p retires from Pro
Post #24 Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:40 am 
Oza
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Recompiled with John's findings and analyzing those pro comments with KataGo some more.
Seems like the Kido comments are 2 moves out of phase with Go World's and KataGo's.

Anyway, really interesting to compare and see that the pros on many occasions found the same deep variations as KataGo, sometimes there's a pro suggestion unconfirmed or vice versa.



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 Post subject: Re: Otake Hideo 9p retires from Pro
Post #25 Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:24 am 
Oza
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Game 3 of the 1978 Meijin final, analyzed with KataGo

Like in game 2, Otake reverses the game via a ko (actually three kos are involved). It's interesting to see that Rin outperforms Otake in the opening of all three games but Otake stages an upset in game 2 and in game 3 takes command in the middle game. Otake reveals himself as a "ko master" while I find myself sympathizing with Rin's supreme feeling in the opening.


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 Post subject: Re: Otake Hideo 9p retires from Pro
Post #26 Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:46 pm 
Oza
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Game 4 in the final is a good example of why the shodan-AI combo can fall short of any meaningful analysis, unless AI is given enough time at every move to find the single path of failure. There are just too many occasions where feeding a game move to KataGo suddenly gives a whole different evaluation than the move candidate had before feeding.

There's a very complicated L&D fight going on at the rights side, which Otake launches in his favor at some point. Why note earlier? What was the defence against it and how did Rin spoil it? I have some suspicions but I'm really at a loss here.


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 Post subject: Re: Otake Hideo 9p retires from Pro
Post #27 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:56 am 
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Otake Hideo is still included in the prelims of some tournaments.

https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/htm/ki000008.html

I could understand if he was active in an ongoing tournament. But he had a game in the first prelim of the 47 Kisei, which has just begun. On Jan 6th, he lost to Moro Arisa 2dan (by default?).

Maybe the pairings were already decided before he announced his retirement. Maybe he will actually play until he is out of every tournament.

Just curious.

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