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 Post subject: About Go Seigen
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:26 pm 
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I don't know where to post this, since it is related to pro so I post it here

This is from GOAMA, I stumble again while reading random stuff.
Quiz results
"In his recent interview Cho Hunhyun, 9-dan called him the most genius players of all times and nations. What is his name?"
We got a lot of correct answers, but Ze-Li Dou was the first one. He will get a 6 months subscription to Commented games section on Go4Go : http://www.go4go.net/v2/modules/alex/
The right answer:
Cho Hunhyun, 9-dan said: "Go Seigen, 9-dan is the most genius master in Go history. Lee Changho and me are much behind him"


Lee changho and cho hunhyun are much behind Go Seigen?
A few questions arise while I was reading this.

1. I wonder if Lee changho and Cho hunhyun did study Go Seigen games, I know Cho Chikun said he did and benefit from it very much.
2. If Go Seigen is still young today, say mid 20 or early 30s, how well do you think he can hold against top players these day? Cho U, Lee Sedol, Lee changho, Gu Li, Kong Jie etc.
3. I also wonder if Cho said that out of respect for Go Seigen while being humble himself, or did he really mean that. If he did, then this idiot low level me would have to look into Go Seigen games seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:44 pm 
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Seems pros either aren't interested in or aren't given the opportunity to play 13 hour (per player) matches these days.

It's no wonder Pros today aren't playing with the same depth with only three hours on the clock.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:49 pm 
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I do believe that Go Seigen in his prime could give one or two stones to any of the current top players. Cho Hunhyun has surely studied his games, how would he come to his conclusion otherwise?

This is not a question of the time available, although I do think that for a real quality professional game, a whole day should be available. Go himself was always a proponent of having games finish within a day.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #4 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:48 am 
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Wow, really? Perhaps I should study some these games as well. :P Although honestly, I don't think it really matters which old pro I study at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #5 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:00 am 
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Harleqin wrote:
I do believe that Go Seigen in his prime could give one or two stones to any of the current top players. Cho Hunhyun has surely studied his games, how would he come to his conclusion otherwise?


Far better, they had the same master...

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #6 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:17 am 
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Tryphon wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
I do believe that Go Seigen in his prime could give one or two stones to any of the current top players. Cho Hunhyun has surely studied his games, how would he come to his conclusion otherwise?


Far better, they had the same master...


Heh, I did not know that. However, when Cho became a pupil of Segoe in 1963 he was 4 kyu, while Go was at that time already the strongest 9 dan.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #7 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:00 am 
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Go Seigen in his prime beat down every other top pro in Japan (there were none in Korea or China at the time), forcing many to a handicap. While the overall level of play might be higher now there is no reason to think that, were he still young and active, Go would not be able to do the same with today's professional. Relative to the standards of the time I doubt that today's players are any stronger than yesteryear's.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #8 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:00 am 
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But what about Shusaku? He also was a dominating player in his time.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #9 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:25 am 
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FlamingMetroidzd wrote:
Wow, really? Perhaps I should study some these games as well. :P Although honestly, I don't think it really matters which old pro I study at this point.


Actually it could make a difference. There's nothing wrong with studying the games of whoever you want, but if you want to understand the moves better pick an "orthodox" player such as Takagawa. Creative, imaginative players like Go Seigen, O Meien, or Yamashita Keigo are exciting to watch but hard for us weaker players to understand. So, for the most bang for your study buck choose a player like Takagawa, Rin Kaiho, Yi Chang ho, or Otake Hideo.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #10 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:18 pm 
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gowan wrote:
FlamingMetroidzd wrote:
Wow, really? Perhaps I should study some these games as well. :P Although honestly, I don't think it really matters which old pro I study at this point.


Actually it could make a difference. There's nothing wrong with studying the games of whoever you want, but if you want to understand the moves better pick an "orthodox" player such as Takagawa. Creative, imaginative players like Go Seigen, O Meien, or Yamashita Keigo are exciting to watch but hard for us weaker players to understand. So, for the most bang for your study buck choose a player like Takagawa, Rin Kaiho, Yi Chang ho, or Otake Hideo.


I'm not quite sure that I agree with this. Even if you're studying in order to improve as much as possible in as short a time as possible, it isn't obvious to me that any pro will be much better than any other. You can even make a case that studying an imaginative player could be easier to understand, because a strong fighting pro (for instance) might complement your own weaker fighting shapes.

I feel that you should study who you like, and that if it interests you then the excitement will overwhelm the minor (to an amateur) style differences.


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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #11 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:02 am 
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Go Seigen is a legendary Go player
Look at his replays, they are really amazing.
Go players today have nothing to compare with to him
Go is really on a different level

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #12 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:41 am 
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SpongeBob wrote:
But what about Shusaku? He also was a dominating player in his time.


It seems absurd that I am about to type a long post on a subject that really defies an answer. This sort of debate, in any sport, comparing players over time is so subjective. And as a caveat, I am substantially ignorant about the classical Chinese players.

That being said, Go Seigen is impossible to argue against here, in my subjective opinion.

My criteria for genius has 4 parts.

Dominance
Invention
Competition
Quality of Play

I think a fair list of nominees would be Dosaku, Shusaku, Shuei, Go, Sakata, Cho Chikun, Cho Hun Hyuen, Lee Chang Ho and Lee Sedol.

When we look at dominance we have to keep in mind that in classical times, the master had immense advantages, it was not an even competition in many ways. Still, the most dominant player of all times seems to have been Dosaku, perhaps two stones stronger than the world. Shusaku won all his Castle Games, but his results agains his own teacher are not dominating at all, so his claim is not as impressive. Shuei's is better, but again, he had the perogatives of the classical age. Go, on the other hand, competed on even terms, and conclusively established, for a considerable period of time, that he was a stone better than the world. Sakata, the Chos and Lee Sedol had good runs of dominance, but I would argue not one stone better dominance. I would place Lee Chang Ho third here, behind Dosaku and Go, I think he clearly established he was 1 point, not one stone, better than everyone.

Invention gives great advantage to the classical players - and again Dosaku shines, as does Shusaku. But Go Seigen outshines Shusaku, I beleive, and at a much later time he still managed to reimagine the game in a fashion that no one since has.

Clearly it is in the realm of level of competition that Dosaku loses his first points - and alot of them. And while you can argue that competition is substantial now - Go faced Kitani, Sakata, Hosai, Utaro and Takagawa - all in their primes, and beat them without komi.

Finally, his games remain amazing and his insights are still sought by many of the strongest players today.

You can try to argue that he is not the greatest, but he is clearly, like Babe Ruth, or Jack Nicklaus, or Pele, the guy you have to argue against. And that usually proves the point in and of itself.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #13 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:10 am 
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I was just thinking about Go Seigen the other day. If only he had the physical stamina, he would surely be unbeatable now, with 90+ years of study behind him. Don't you dream of having the kind of insights that his experience must provide?

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #14 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:23 am 
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Go Seigen is amazing, beyond a doubt. I've several times seen warnings that studying him may not be the best for amateurs - simply because we won't understand exactly what is going on and may come to the wrong conclusions. His book "Way of play for the 21st century" is one of my favorites though, and is very clear with its explanations.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #15 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:36 am 
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John Fairbairn suggested looking at winning percentages as White during the no komi days. Someone with GoGoD near to hand should check on Go.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #16 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:58 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
John Fairbairn suggested looking at winning percentages as White during the no komi days. Someone with GoGoD near to hand should check on Go.


Something like 165-117-20 in the latest GoGoD.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #17 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:16 pm 
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So 54.5% in an era with very good competition.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #18 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:30 am 
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I'd call 54.5% no komi white wins a good stone and a half stronger than anyone else.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #19 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:50 am 
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Numsgil wrote:
I'd call 54.5% no komi white wins a good stone and a half stronger than anyone else.


That sounds like an overestimate.

Scoring 50% against someone while playing white without komi is, by definition, equivalent to being half a stone stronger.

With 54% against a variety of strong opponents, I'd guess he was probably about half a stone stronger than the best of them, and closer to one stone stronger than the worst of them.

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 Post subject: Re: About Go Seigen
Post #20 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:18 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Numsgil wrote:
I'd call 54.5% no komi white wins a good stone and a half stronger than anyone else.


That sounds like an overestimate.

Scoring 50% against someone while playing white without komi is, by definition, equivalent to being half a stone stronger.

With 54% against a variety of strong opponents, I'd guess he was probably about half a stone stronger than the best of them, and closer to one stone stronger than the worst of them.


I thought white without komi was a full stone handicap.

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