Who Has A Track Record?

hyperpape · #1

It's no surprise that the number of titles won is what sticks in people's minds, regardless of a player's talent. Just ask this kid named LeBron. Western Go players are probably even more focused on titles because many of us don't follow results beyond the title matches.

During the first two rounds of the LG Cup, several previous international titleholders were knocked out including three of the absolute top players in the world: Cho U, Choi Cheolhan, Lee Sedol, Gu Li, Kong Jie, Park Yeonghun and Piao Wenyao. Lee Changho is the only remaining player who has won an international title. Those are the makings of a story right there. The only thing more newsworthy would be if half of them were Japanese.

At GoGameGuru as well as at the AGA website which ran with their report, the take on the news was to say that Lee Changho is the only remaining player with "a solid track record in International Go tournaments."

You're free to use terms how you like—perhaps only winning an international title counts as a solid track record for you. By my standards, there are at least three players with indisputably solid track records. Their accomplishments are not far inferior to those of Piao, who was mentioned as one of the big shots who was upset.

Heo Yeongho was a finalist in the 2010 Samsung Cup, a semifinalist in the 2011 BC Card Cup and a semifinalist in the 2011 Chunlan.
Xie He was twice a semifinalist, in 2003 Samsung and 2006 Chunlan. He'll play in the Chunlan finals later this month.
Qiu Jun was a finalist in the 2009 Samsung and a semifinalist in the 2010 Fujitsu.

Won Sungjin (semis), Chen Shiyuan (semis) and Kim Jiseok (at least quarterfinals--I feel as if I missed something he did) have each gone pretty far in at least one international tournament. After my search, which was rather haphazard, the only player I can't pin with an international success is Jiang Weijie, and he's a 19 year old hot shot sitting back "on the farm drilling tossed up dollars and whisky bottles on the corral fence." (Thanks, John F).

P.S. It might sound like I'm picking on the folks at GoGameGuru. I think they run a nice site, they do good reporting and commentaries. One stray line in an otherwise fine article gave me an in to a minor obsession of mine, and I thought it would be edifying to see how many of these "unproven" players have accomplishments of their own. You have your superstars like Lee Changho and Lee Sedol, but the professional world is not usually so easily divided into the masters of the universe and everyone else.

Edit: got Qiu Jun's record slightly wrong.

jing · #2

Nobody's talking so here's my 2c. I'm really excited about the quarter finalists this year. Xie He and Qiu Jun are both really talented and exciting players. It's cool to see young guys like Kim Jiseok and Jiang Weijie in with a chance too. :tmbup:

If you want to compare track records, Lee's (what is it?) 21? international titles compared to everyone else's zero(?) is pretty stark. As I said to you on the site, Lee's really in a class of his own no matter who you compare him to on title wins.

It's not that the other guys aren't talented. I hope it didn't sound like I was saying that? :oops:

Sometimes really talented players just never make it internationally. Don't we see that in lots of sports? Some people can be really successful in the domestic scene, but never make a breakthrough. Xie could become an example of this, but I really hope he doesn't. I'm actually secretly cheering for Xie, but didn't want to go off on a tangent about him.

What Lee has that the others don't (so far) is consistency. He's also been around for longer, so he has more titles. I really believe that if Lee could get fit again and return to his previous form, he'd still be the strongest player in the world. Younggil says that too.

And (almost forgot to say this) I'm writing the go news, so I try to make it exciting when it is, I try not to exaggerate too much, but I don't want it to be boring either. Please forgive the occasional overplay though. ;-)

cdybeijing · #3

I didn't pay much attention to the original comment about track record. It's pretty clear that Lee Changho is in a class of his own in this regard.

When I first read some of the commentary, my thought was more like, wow, there must be a lot of people who don't really know who Xie He is (perhaps because he is not yet a big star internationally) but this is a guy who some people think is the best Chinese player. Recently, I have only heard his name mentioned along with Gu Li and Kong Jie in this context.

jing · #4

Xie could be the most brilliant player to never win an international title (since they started). I hope this time he can show the whole world his art.

hyperpape · #5

Lee Sedol, Gu Li, Kong Jie, Choe Cheolhan and Cho U have more substantial international records than the seven non-Lee players remaining. There's no arguing with that. I assume the same is true of Choe Cheolhan, though I'm not looking right now, and I've said that you can probably put Piao Wenyao as more successful than the three I mentioned. So it's a surprise that all of those players lost while these seven got through.

Similarly, no player matches Lee's record in international titles. No one else has steadily won international titles for fifteen years or won 21 titles (but we're watching Lee Sedol). So I can't deny that Lee is in a class of his own, as far as records go.

Really, even when we compare someone like Gu Li or Kong Jie to Lee, we're either talking about their current strength, or being stretching when we compare their careers. Many players with solid track records can't match Lee's record.

Now quick, sum up the last three paragraphs in a sentence! You went a step beyond those points by saying the remaining players lacked a solid international track record, but I don't know how I would have put the point better. So it's pretty small, and I didn't think you were disparaging those players' talents.

Still, I did think that the one remark wasn't accurate, and that it could be interesting to point out that several players who have yet to win a title have distinguished records. I hope it didn't seem like I was being unnecessarily critical.

hyperpape · #6

Wow. I read the Chinese rankings, and look at tournament tables, so Xie popped out at me as someone who probably had a track record while composing this post, but I still didn't realize he was that highly regarded.

tchan001 · #7

http://senseis.xmp.net/?ChinesePromotionSystem
http://senseis.xmp.net/?NihonKiInNewPromotionSystem
http://senseis.xmp.net/?KoreanPromotionSystem

Notice the requirements for promotion to 9d.

If the requirements for promotion to 9d are not met, it doesn't look likely you have the requirements for a "solid track record".

There are indeed a lot of talented professional players, but the requirements to distinguish the top from the pack is quite stringent.

hyperpape · #8

1. All those systems count domestic titles as well, which is explicitly not what we're discussing.
2. Those three systems are all different, so I wonder which one should govern our evaluation.
3. Professional promotion systems change over time. Sometimes they are easier, sometimes harder. The very change in the system suggests we should not use them as our yardstick. Lee Sedol was 6 dan after winning three international tournaments!

Imagine that we import the Korean standard to other countries. I believe 29 players have ever won an international title, thereby gaining a three rank jump. Assume they all make 9 dan. Perhaps a handful of players will reach 9 dan via domestic titles as well, but not many.

Are we to say that in the twenty years of international go, there have only been 29 players with solid records?

When Nie Weiping makes the quarterfinals of an international tournament (or makes the finals three times) will we say it's a surprise because his record is not so solid?

tchan001 · #9

You don't really need to worry about how players are promoted to be 9d within each country's professional promotional system and how such systems change over time. That was just to show that there is an emphasis on winning in order to have a "solid track record".

The key measure for a solid track record in international tournaments is probably how much money individual players earn in international tournaments. With this measure, you can clearly compare the significance of the track records of professional players from different countries.

I would think that earnings is a significant factor into valuing sporting professionals amongst their peers in many sports.

hyperpape · **#10**

I see--it seemed as if you were making a different point. Sorry to have misunderstood.

P.S. Look at the pay schemes for American football and basketball. They're special.

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