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Who is the best player in 2013?
Iyama Yuta 24%  24%  [ 10 ]
Kim Jiseok 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Lee Sedol 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Choi Cheolhan 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Gu Li 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Wang Xi 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Chen Yaoye 20%  20%  [ 8 ]
Shi Yue 15%  15%  [ 6 ]
Park Junghwan 7%  7%  [ 3 ]
Other 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Undecided 17%  17%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 41
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 Post subject: Re: Poll: Who was the best player in 2013?
Post #21 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:40 pm 
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emerus wrote:
Mef wrote:
wineandgolover wrote:
Well OP has announced that, per his definition, best player = strongest.

Because China won all but one of the international tournaments in 2013, doesn't that mean the strongest player was likely Chinese?

I'm not saying who is strongest at this very moment, I am just proposing that given the way the question is worded, I don't see how 2013's strongest player wouldn't hail from the country that won virtually all the international contests.

How's that for a stake in the ground?


To play devil's advocate, I would imagine the strongest player would use his strength to earn the most money, and not necessarily worry about which tournaments it came from. Under that assumption, all the votes for Iyama Yuta make sense.


That is ignoring a lot of important facts.



I guess to restate the thesis in a more clear way:

Iyama Yuta is on a pace to make on the order of $2 million this year from his domestic play in Japan. International tournaments do not present a particularly enticing incentive for him to compete, given that they require a large disruption from his domestic schedule and have a much larger pool of entrants. His total time to prepare for events is limited, and the format of international events is quite different from domestic championships (thus would require different preparation). One would hardly expect his best efforts to be given to any international event, as such efforts would detract from his domestic performance, which is much more lucrative. Therefore, one cannot come to an objective, generalizable measurement of Iyama Yuta's skill based solely on performance in international tournaments.

I do not mean to speak ill of any other player, I simply want to point out that trying to say that Iyama wasn't performing as well simply because he didn't care about international tournaments isn't a particularly compelling argument to me.

Because (as many on this forum who know me know) I'm a baseball fan, I'll include a baseball analogy in the hide tags.
Trying to evaluate top talent based solely upon international competition is not going to be a valid assessment when the compensation structures of different localized events vary wildly. For instance, let's see how the top 5 pitchers in the world* did during international baseball competition (the World Baseball Classic): 0.0 innings pitched...ah yes, none of them considered international competition worth participating in, because none of them wanted to jeopardize their highly lucrative careers in the US's domestic baseball leagues. Only 1 of the top ten 2013 pitchers in the world competed internationally(Anibal Sanchez) and he pulled the go equivalent of getting knocked out in the first round (yay for small sample sizes!).

Does this mean that I think Japan has some secret contingent of super strong players that just get unlucky internationally? Of course not, however I think that saying Iyama Yuta has no claim at being the top performer in 2013 simply because he chooses not to compete in international tournaments is not a strong argument in and of itself. Similarly, I would think it silly to claim that Clayton Kershaw wasn't the best pitcher in 2013 just because he didn't play in the WBC.

Of course some may say, "Oh this isn't the same because Koreans can't compete for Japanese titles!" but that's has absolutely no bearing on this subject. Regardless of who is competing for the local Japanese titles, the focus of the strongest Japanese players is going to be on the local events because there is so much more money in them. Iyama isn't going to turn down half a million dollars or the Kisei just because Koreans couldn't compete for it. Does this mean for certain that Iyama is performing better than the Koreans? No, of course not. Does this mean he is necessarily performing worse? I wouldn't say so. At the end of the day you have to pick some other metric to evaluate them, which apparently many at L19 did, and decided Iyama put up the best show in 2013.



*You could try to argue that the top 5 pitchers in the MLB are not the top 5 pitchers in the world, but that is an awfully hard case to make. The best pitcher in the Japanese leagues, Masahiro Tanaka, just got signed by the New York Yankees and projects to be their #3 starter. That's the third best pitcher on their team, which had one pitcher who was perhaps a top 25 starter last year. Even if he excels to the point of his counterpart Yu Darvish (a questionable assumption) that puts him as a fringe top 10 candidate. Fact of the matter is, any way you care to slice it, a huge amount of the top baseball talent is in the US and chooses to never compete internationally.

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Post #22 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:35 am 
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Mef wrote:
trying to say that Iyama wasn't performing as well simply because he didn't care about international tournaments isn't a particularly compelling argument to me.

Nobody said that? In fact, the bold part is entirely speculation on your behalf.

Mef wrote:
I would imagine the strongest player would use his strength to earn the most money, and not necessarily worry about which tournaments it came from.

You can imagine all you like, that doesn't make it real.

Basically you're speculating here on why his results are worse than those of other players, with your main argument being "greed".

Iyama Yuta is already financially secure (I assume at least) and will probably go down in history should he be the one to bring Japan back to the international top in go, so imho it makes sense for him to try his best on the international stage.

But all of this is just more speculation and thus fairly pointless.


The only relevant data are tournament results, which aren't in Iyama Yuta's favour, as far as I'm aware.

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Post #23 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:06 am 
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Mef wrote:
Because (as many on this forum who know me know) I'm a baseball fan, I'll include a baseball analogy in the hide tags.
Trying to evaluate top talent based solely upon international competition is not going to be a valid assessment when the compensation structures of different localized events vary wildly. For instance, let's see how the top 5 pitchers in the world* did during international baseball competition (the World Baseball Classic): 0.0 innings pitched...ah yes, none of them considered international competition worth participating in, because none of them wanted to jeopardize their highly lucrative careers in the US's domestic baseball leagues. Only 1 of the top ten 2013 pitchers in the world competed internationally(Anibal Sanchez) and he pulled the go equivalent of getting knocked out in the first round (yay for small sample sizes!).

Does this mean that I think Japan has some secret contingent of super strong players that just get unlucky internationally? Of course not, however I think that saying Iyama Yuta has no claim at being the top performer in 2013 simply because he chooses not to compete in international tournaments is not a strong argument in and of itself. Similarly, I would think it silly to claim that Clayton Kershaw wasn't the best pitcher in 2013 just because he didn't play in the WBC.

Of course some may say, "Oh this isn't the same because Koreans can't compete for Japanese titles!" but that's has absolutely no bearing on this subject. Regardless of who is competing for the local Japanese titles, the focus of the strongest Japanese players is going to be on the local events because there is so much more money in them. Iyama isn't going to turn down half a million dollars or the Kisei just because Koreans couldn't compete for it. Does this mean for certain that Iyama is performing better than the Koreans? No, of course not. Does this mean he is necessarily performing worse? I wouldn't say so. At the end of the day you have to pick some other metric to evaluate them, which apparently many at L19 did, and decided Iyama put up the best show in 2013.



*You could try to argue that the top 5 pitchers in the MLB are not the top 5 pitchers in the world, but that is an awfully hard case to make. The best pitcher in the Japanese leagues, Masahiro Tanaka, just got signed by the New York Yankees and projects to be their #3 starter. That's the third best pitcher on their team, which had one pitcher who was perhaps a top 25 starter last year. Even if he excels to the point of his counterpart Yu Darvish (a questionable assumption) that puts him as a fringe top 10 candidate. Fact of the matter is, any way you care to slice it, a huge amount of the top baseball talent is in the US and chooses to never compete internationally.
I know I am on dangerous ground when I challenge analogies lately, sigh. :)

But I think your baseball analogy isn't very useful for two primary reasons.
1) Baseball is a team sport, which by its nature is different than individual sports and games like go.
2) Today's era in go doesn't correspond with today's era in baseball at all. In baseball, you have several countries that play well, but only one that is dominant. Many, if not most, of the best players eventually go to MLB to prove themselves, and, yes, to earn the big bucks.

For most of the last century, go was similar. The best players in the world were Japanese, or often migrated to Japan to prove themselves. However, that is no longer true. Korea overtook Japan twenty years ago, and Chinese has recently moved to the top of the heap (arguable, I know).

So, unlike in baseball, in go the only way to determine who is strongest is international tournaments. Else how do we know if a successful player isn't just a big fish in a small pond?

Don't get me wrong, I think Iyama Yuta is great, and I admire his domestic success greatly. But best in the world? As they say in Missouri, "Show me."

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Post #24 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:13 am 
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Mef wrote:
Iyama Yuta is on a pace to make on the order of $2 million this year from his domestic play in Japan. International tournaments do not present a particularly enticing incentive for him to compete, given that they require a large disruption from his domestic schedule and have a much larger pool of entrants. His total time to prepare for events is limited, and the format of international events is quite different from domestic championships (thus would require different preparation). One would hardly expect his best efforts to be given to any international event, as such efforts would detract from his domestic performance, which is much more lucrative. Therefore, one cannot come to an objective, generalizable measurement of Iyama Yuta's skill based solely on performance in international tournaments.


We're talking about who's best, not who's richest, right?

The strongest players in China and Korea do not go play in Japan to earn the greater tournament money. Whether they aren't allowed to, or choose not to doesn't matter, it just doesn't happen. So it seems unreasonable to use earnings as a metric for best, when the overwhelming majority of players don't have access to those earnings.

If you want to argue which go player was the best capitalist, maybe you'd have a case, but I'm not even sure of that.

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Post #25 Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:52 am 
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If it is really (still) true that the biggest market for Go arguably does not have the best playing field, then the world of Go has a big problem.

It is undeniable that Iyama dominates the Japanese go scene and apparently that scene has still the biggest prize money. On the international scene, the Japanese are overpowered by Chinese and Korean players. There is great reason to believe that it points to a structural lag of the Japanese.

Putting that lag on the account of the mediocre prize money in international tournaments is just too easy.

Making the analogy to soccer/football, it is known that loads of money are to be earned in the Oil states for players and managers that are either thinking of retiring or take a big paycheck along their career. However, we also know those states to be a sandbox cemetery. Players' reputation is damaged when moving there and it is very hard to get back to the real high level competitions like England, Spain or Germany.

Money usually attracts the best in the field but under certain cultural circumstances this is not always true. And it seems to me that the situation in Japan has become unbalanced too.

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Post #26 Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:00 am 
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wineandgolover wrote:

We're talking about who's best, not who's richest, right?

The strongest players in China and Korea do not go play in Japan to earn the greater tournament money. Whether they aren't allowed to, or choose not to doesn't matter, it just doesn't happen. So it seems unreasonable to use earnings as a metric for best, when the overwhelming majority of players don't have access to those earnings.

If you want to argue which go player was the best capitalist, maybe you'd have a case, but I'm not even sure of that.


Please go back and reread what I wrote. I never claim that "because he makes the most money he is the best". I claim that because he makes the most money, this claim you make...

Quote:
I find all the votes for Iyama Yuta before the vote purge curious, because he hasn't ever won a major international tournament


...does not strike me as a compelling argument. The state of the discussion was you saying "Many people did Y, I think that's strange because of X" to which I respond "I don't find X to be terribly convincing" and the implied statement of "therefore people who did Y may have been entirely justified in doing so for whatever their own reasons were".

I don't think Iyama is terribly incentivized to participate in international events, certainly not to the extent of his Korean and Chinese counterparts. Therefore, I do not think that a counting statistic based on international play (number of titles won) is a good metric for evaluating his strength relative to his international peers.

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Post #27 Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:21 am 
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Mef wrote:
Therefore, I do not think that a counting statistic based on international play (number of titles won) is a good metric for evaluating his strength relative to his international peers.

Thanks for replying, Mef. Out of interest, do you have a better metric?

I understand your argument, and it makes some sense. But really it smacks as more of an excuse than a justification. IMHO, you can't be considered the strongest if you can't, or choose not to, play and beat the big dogs.

Out of interest, does anybody know if Iyama played in the big 2013 international tournaments? Was he beaten, or merely absent?

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Post #28 Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:31 am 
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1. He missed most of the tournaments this year: http://igokisen.web.fc2.com/news.html

2. His performance in the tournaments he participated in was only ok. But it also wasn't statistically very significant.

3. The obvious right way to do this is to do ratings based on all tournaments, and based on that, calculate performance metrics.

4. Regarding the excuse point, I think mef's point about number of championships is entirely accurate. And there simply is no guarantee that there always has to be an answer to your questions, much less an easy one.

5. Nonetheless, I know of no reason to think that Iyama is the best, and some reason to think that he is not (c.f. #2, and the last set of ratings done by Dr. Bae Taeil, though I'd like to see more people discuss his methods).

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Post #29 Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:47 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
5. Nonetheless, I know of no reason to think that Iyama is the best, and some reason to think that he is not (c.f. #2, and the last set of ratings done by Dr. Bae Taeil, though I'd like to see more people discuss his methods).

Thanks hyperpape (autocorrect hell, btw).

Wow,
Bae Taeil's system rated Iyama #21 the last time it was run, admittedly pre-2013.

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Post #30 Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:35 am 
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World ranking as of end of 2013(Stat by Dr Bae Taeil),


Image
Image


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Post #31 Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:03 pm 
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Okay, even I feel like Dr Bae Taeil is piling on now. :)

45'th for Iyama? Ouch. Good thing he's rich.

Trout, where did you find this? I did a cursory Google check before posting mine. Thanks.

(side note: my current favorite player to review, Ke Jie, is up to 26th. sweet!)

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Post #32 Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:38 pm 
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It is from Cyberoro Korean site.

http://www.cyberoro.com/news/news_view. ... =3&cmt_n=0

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Post #33 Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:07 pm 
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wineandgolover wrote:
Mef wrote:
Therefore, I do not think that a counting statistic based on international play (number of titles won) is a good metric for evaluating his strength relative to his international peers.

Thanks for replying, Mef. Out of interest, do you have a better metric?

I understand your argument, and it makes some sense. But really it smacks as more of an excuse than a justification. IMHO, you can't be considered the strongest if you can't, or choose not to, play and beat the big dogs.

Out of interest, does anybody know if Iyama played in the big 2013 international tournaments? Was he beaten, or merely absent?


Well, I never intended it to be a justification for why I think Iyama was the best (personally I don't think that), I just felt that it might not be giving those who do think he is the best a fair shake (because I'm sure they have their reasons).


As far as a metric for judging him...I can't say that I have one in hand, but I can think about ways I would go about it, unfortunately for many the data just might not be there. The rating system mentioned by hyperpape is one possibility, and certainly is grounded in a reasonable starting point though I think this will have large error bars for players with only limited sample sets.

Ideally we could come up with some kind of condition-normalized performance factor to rate him relative to other Japanese players, then evaluate the his performance relative to those who have a large number of international games. You could attempt to build some kind of projection system based around this...but it may be challenging as there might not be a good comparison for Iyama amongst Japanese players with large numbers of international games.

To continue the tangential analogy discussion:

wineandgolover wrote:
But I think your baseball analogy isn't very useful for two primary reasons.
1) Baseball is a team sport, which by its nature is different than individual sports and games like go.
2) Today's era in go doesn't correspond with today's era in baseball at all. In baseball, you have several countries that play well, but only one that is dominant. Many, if not most, of the best players eventually go to MLB to prove themselves, and, yes, to earn the big bucks.


This is one of the reasons I tried to use pitchers as the basis for comparison. Pitchers performances are highly individual based and most modern pitcher evaluations will remove external effects (team defense, park factors, etc). A pitcher is a one on one contest much like go, there is perhaps a weakness in the analogy in that pitchers do not directly compete with each other instead they are evaluated by proxy. When evaluating how a pitcher is expected to perform, they use rate stats to assess his past performance (something like FIP, fielding independent pitching), regressed statistics to predict how he should have performed (xFIP - FIP but normalized for places the pitcher may have gotten lucky, like having a large number of flyballs but low number of home runs), and counting statistics trying to estimate overall value (WAR or Wins Above Replacement - it compares both rate stats and the total amount of time played in a season so that you get a total value produced). In theory you could try to derive similar metrics like this for go, normalizing wins based upon the context. Blitz wins might not count as much as wins with long timesettings, wins in later rounds may count more, wins may have more or less value based upon the state of a series (Is it easy to put away an opponent when they are facing elimination? or is that a game where the person who's ahead tends to take a breather and give up a loss?). Ideally putting everything into a normalized context could help you project expected performance, and maybe find places where players got lucky.

The other amusing reason I picked this analogy is because baseball pitching has this literal exact dilemma going on right now (which I alluded to in my previous post). There is a pitcher from the Japanese Leagues who was absolutely dominant last year and they need to project how well he will do when he makes the transition to MLB. Masahiro Tanaka went 24-0 and posted very strong "traditional" baseball stats over 212 innings pitched (2.29 FIP if you care to look at that...lower number is better, like an ERA). Of course the challenge is projecting how moving to bigger ballparks with stronger hitters and a ball with more bounce will affect his performance. Luckily there are people who run the numbers and do the projections, and they think he'll end up being somewhere around the 25th-35th best pitcher in the league.

The overall analogue to go is quite striking. Japan's baseball leagues are good, but generally considered not quite as strong as the US. There is only limited mixing between the two groups, but there are some comparisons that could be made for reference. Hiroki Kuroda is sometimes given as a good comparison for Masahiro Tanaka, he was about 22nd or 23rd in WAR last year depending on who you ask. If we use Dr Bae Taeil's ratings and we figure Iyama falls somewhere in the 20-50 range of best players, that's actually about what they're expecting from Tanaka as a pitcher both from projections and from comparisons...it's actually a little funny how these things seem to parallel. Of course the one problem we have moving over to go is that there really isn't a good recent comparison for Iyama that we can use to assess outcomes in international play, the last time someone was this dominant in Japan the international go scene was also dominated by Japan. Perhaps he will make the jump and we can use him as the baseline for future players.


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Post #34 Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:36 am 
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wineandgolover wrote:
Okay, even I feel like Dr Bae Taeil is piling on now. :)

45'th for Iyama? Ouch. Good thing he's rich.



So, I slept on this and it occurred to me...Iyama's rating drop may in part be an artifact of the Japanese system. When you first win titles you must beat all other challengers. This means that in the years you are acquiring titles you probably have ~75-85 winning percentage. To maintain the status of holding titles, you simply need better than 57%.

One might expect Iyama to have a higher rating when he's winning 75% of his games against the field compared to 60% of his games against a very limited top tier.

In contrast, most Chinese and Korean tournaments the winner comes up through the bracket each time. This means a top Korean/Chinese player gets to hold that 75% against everyone each year.

It may be that (paradoxically) losing a couple his titles may allow Iyama to climb back up the international ratings.

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Post #35 Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:36 pm 
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If so, that would be a damning indictment of his system. Such a system would be deeply deficient.

Luckily, I think it's not true. Iyama's win percentage in 2013 was still 70%.

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Post #36 Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:12 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
If so, that would be a damning indictment of his system. Such a system would be deeply deficient.

Luckily, I think it's not true. Iyama's win percentage in 2013 was still 70%.


I don't think it would be an indictment of the system, so much as yet another manifestation of a classic problem in ratings-- How do you take limited data and accurately evaluate relative performance between two largely isolated populations?

Conceptually this problem is similar to something like "Who is the stronger player, Honinbo Shuei or Go Seigen?". The difference is that this is a political/geographical separation rather than a temporal one.

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Post #37 Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:25 pm 
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What I'm talking about is simpler: it's not about international comparisons at all. I'm saying that on your explanation, the ratings system thinks 57% against a title-challenger is worse than 70% against a lesser player. And getting that right is the entire point of a ratings system. That's not really anything to do with international comparisons.

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Post #38 Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:08 pm 
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I cannot believe that people are actually saying Iyama Yuuta is the best player of 2013. That's like going back to the 1960s or 1970s and asking the same question and hearing someone answer Cho Namchul or Kim In. Sure, they did very well domestically, but put them up against someone like Rin Kaiho and the answer of who would be the better player would be answered pretty quickly.

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Post #39 Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:59 pm 
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The Korean pros are almost unananimous in declaring Shi Yue as the most difficult Chinese opponent. In that sense, Shi Yue as the strongest player in the world seems to be a reasonable hypothesis. Pros certainly do not play enough games for any rating system to be anything better than a rough approximation, but the current ranking does not seem to be too bad even if the ranking methodology has issues.

Iyama's ranking receives a positive bonus due to playing championship games in tournaments that have huge prize totals. Dr. Bae's system gives bonuses for playing in title matches and also weights games based on the total prize pool of the tournament. In fact, Iyama's games receive the maximum possible bonuses in those dimensions. Iyama's ranking is low not because of the few bad results he has had in international play. In fact, I would say that he didn't play all that badly in international match-ups. His ranking is low because his Japanese opponents were crushed by Chinese and Korea players as a group.

One might claim that Iyama might be underrated because he does not play too many international matches. While he himself has not played too many international matches, his Japanese opponents have played a nontrivial number of international matches as a group. Many Japanese pros admit that Japan lags behind China and Korea at the moment. This does not mean the absolute skill gap is huge. For pros, being 1 to 2 points (points/moku NOT stones!!) weaker is more than enough to explain that difference.

One might also claim that Iyama's ranking suffers too much from the performance of his Japanese peers, but he is not dominating his peers to an extent that would make us believe that. Cho Hunhyun in his heyday may have been underrated, but Cho was one stone stronger than the second strongest player in Korea and perhaps two stones stronger than most Korean pros. Cho beat Seo Bongsoo in more than 2/3 of their match-ups. We cannot attribute that level of dominance to Iyama.

I would not be surprised if Iyama is actually the 10th strongest player in the world. That would certainly be strong enough to win an international tournament. However, I would be quite surprised if he was the best player in the world. Iyama might be underrated, but he's not number one.


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Post #40 Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:04 am 
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lemmata wrote:
I would not be surprised if Iyama is actually the 10th strongest player in the world. That would certainly be strong enough to win an international tournament. However, I would be quite surprised if he was the best player in the world. Iyama might be underrated, but he's not number one.



Not to disagree with you in any way, simply to add some ideas to the discussion --

The title of this thread is "Who was the best player in 2013" not "Who do we think the strongest player in the world is?"

I point this out because there is an important distinction here. In an analogy that will surprise no one, this is another problem that comes up frequently in baseball: The difference between who performed the best in a given year vs. who is the best player in a given year. These might sound like this same, but they are not quite the same thing. Again, in baseball for baseball it's easy to imagine the difference -- Think about a player who hits 25 home runs...now think about a player who hits 25 game-winning home runs. Both have demonstrated equal hitting skill, but one has situationally had a much better performance.

The same could be said for go -- imagine a player who wins 3 major international titles but loses all games outside of those tournaments. If you go 15-85, is this a poor year (because you lost 85% of your games) or a great one (because you won 3 international titles)? In the same vein, I think it could be quite possible to have the best player of a given year not necessarily be the one who is considered the strongest. At its core we are talking about two separate ideas: 1: Who had the best results of the year and was most successful now vs. 2: Who do we believe has the highest true talent level, and thus in future years is predicted to be most likely to have success?

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