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What do you think about the current mod activity?
There is too much mod activity. 19%  19%  [ 9 ]
There is perhaps a little too much mod activity. 15%  15%  [ 7 ]
The mod activity is at an acceptable level. 21%  21%  [ 10 ]
The mods have got the balance just right. 13%  13%  [ 6 ]
There could be a little more mod activity. 6%  6%  [ 3 ]
There is not at all enough mod activity. 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
This poll is inappropriate! 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
I'm just thankful for order they provide, from the chaos of the net. :) 19%  19%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 48
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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #81 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:53 am 
Judan

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tchan001 wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
I'm pretty sure that there are fewer active mods than there were in the past. So while we should make sure anyone who becomes a mod is well suited, I think the worry about too many mods is merely hypothetical.

For someone who does have moderation power (as in being on the list of global moderators) to say this probably mean that the forum has too few active mods.


So are there users with mod capabilites unaware of their hidden powers? Do we need some Peter Parker moments?

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #82 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:13 am 
Oza

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Uberdude wrote:
So are there users with mod capabilites unaware of their hidden powers? Do we need some Peter Parker moments?


It's not something that is hidden. Just go to a mod, then look at their profile for the group section, pick global moderators and then hit "go" to show users in that group.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #83 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:22 am 
Judan
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Bonobo wrote:
...
Again: Do you admins & mods talk w/ each other at all? ...


Of course. Like most forums, this one has a private area where admins/mods can discuss issues.
It is used almost daily. ( It has occasionally been the site of vigorous debates )

I don't see that we have a shortage of mods. We are not getting overrun by spam or trolls.
A handful of members have been very diligent about reporting problems ( Thanks, guys, you know who you are ) and we seem to have someone available to handle those problems as they arise.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #84 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:41 am 
Gosei
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I don't see that we have a shortage of mods.


How do you square this with the fact that tchan just announced he will quit moderating because he feels overworked?

I propose that the current mods just add 15 new mods or so. No nominations, elections or asking for volunteers, just add some active users you think you can trust.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #85 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:44 am 
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Well to be fair to the rest of the mods, I'm on the forum quite often and just happen to see many of the things first. So I end up fixing many things but this gets tiring after a while especially when I do not have Solomonic wisdom. And I didn't say quit, just taking a break ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #86 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:55 am 
Judan
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I don't see that we have a shortage of mods.


How do you square this with the fact that tchan just announced he will quit moderating because he feels overworked?


'Overworked' is a relative term. A mod/admin's perception of it may be dependent of how much criticism he receives.

We don't have a shortage of mods. Maybe we have a shortage of happy mods.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #87 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:55 am 
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tchan001 wrote:
Well to be fair to the rest of the mods, I'm on the forum quite often and just happen to see many of the things first. So I end up fixing many things but this gets tiring after a while especially when I do not have Solomonic wisdom. And I didn't say quit, just taking a break ;)


Oh, yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply you quite permanently, just that you quit "for now".

Part of the problem here may be that you are the only mod in East Asia, so you are probably online at times that most of the other mods are asleep. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #88 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:07 am 
Oza
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Bantari wrote:
Well, the point is that, it not being the ideal world, and people being the way they are (yes, even the mods/admin are people) - we should build some functionality to prevent the admins from getting out of hand if there are too many of them...


I know it's fun to debate theoretical discrepancies, but the actual situation is not that we have too many mods, unless you count the ten mods/admins who are apparently utterly inactive. What we have is 2 admins/mods, one of whom is exhausted from the work/criticism, and another who thinks that there is no need for any more mods/admins and no functionality whatsoever for keeping them in line. In fact the catch-22 situation exists that the TOS asks that complaints about an admins actions should not be aired publicly, but rather in P.M.s to the admins who will then supposedly take care of the complaints about themselves.

Joaz Banbeck, Januar 04 2013 wrote:
xed_over wrote:
... Surely there can be a middle ground here to provide both privacy and transparency.


I agree completely. I'm working on it right now. Expect an announcement in the next day or so.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #89 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:22 am 
Oza

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daal wrote:
I know it's fun to debate theoretical discrepancies, but the actual situation is not that we have too many mods, unless you count the ten mods/admins who are apparently utterly inactive. What we have is 2 admins/mods, one of whom is exhausted from the work/criticism, and another who thinks that there is no need for any more mods/admins and no functionality whatsoever for keeping them in line. In fact the catch-22 situation exists that the TOS asks that complaints about an admins actions should not be aired publicly, but rather in P.M.s to the admins who will then supposedly take care of the complaints about themselves.


I wouldn't be opposed to a limited access subforum for this reason, with membership open to users with a certain number of posts, say 50 or 100, to ensure that they are active members of the community with a stake in the outcome of the process. Of course, given the existence of this thread, it's clear that some discussion of these issues is tolerated.

I suspect that the original reason for this was to prevent a thread about every bit of moderator action and drowning the forum in debate about the moderation process, to the exclusion of actual content. In addition, by making it public, one could, hypothetically, invoke desires to not be seen as backing down, which may be detrimental to the long term stability of the site.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #90 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:57 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I don't see that we have a shortage of mods.


How do you square this with the fact that tchan just announced he will quit moderating because he feels overworked?


'Overworked' is a relative term. A mod/admin's perception of it may be dependent of how much criticism he receives.

We don't have a shortage of mods. Maybe we have a shortage of happy mods.


Please, go players in the same city of a mod: gift them a beer or coffee. They deserve it ;)

On unrelated news, is it just me or the site has been down somewhat often lately? I've seen "server not found" errors more than 3 times (each day) in the last 4 days.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #91 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:16 am 
Oza

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skydyr wrote:
I suspect that the original reason for this was to prevent a thread about every bit of moderator action and drowning the forum in debate about the moderation process, to the exclusion of actual content. In addition, by making it public, one could, hypothetically, invoke desires to not be seen as backing down, which may be detrimental to the long term stability of the site.


From previous discussion, the details of mod actions are kept private out of the interesting belief that making them public may be legally actionable. Which seems at odds with the rest of the internet but, eh I know almost nothing about US law.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #92 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:47 am 
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I'm listed, but don't consider myself a mod. I was given mod access as part of volunteering to do technical work, which I have um.. :-? errr... :oops:

I should delete blatant spam instead of reporting it, since that seems harmless, but these days I don't see much of it: someone else must be cleaning it up before I log on.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #93 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:10 am 
Oza

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hyperpape wrote:
I'm listed, but don't consider myself a mod. I was given mod access as part of volunteering to do technical work, which I have um.. :-? errr... :oops:

I should delete blatant spam instead of reporting it, since that seems harmless, but these days I don't see much of it: someone else must be cleaning it up before I log on.


So how many people actively moderate? Is it just Tchan and Joaz?

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #94 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:15 am 
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skydyr wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
I'm listed, but don't consider myself a mod. I was given mod access as part of volunteering to do technical work, which I have um.. :-? errr... :oops:

I should delete blatant spam instead of reporting it, since that seems harmless, but these days I don't see much of it: someone else must be cleaning it up before I log on.


So how many people actively moderate? Is it just Tchan and Joaz?


Araban wrote:
I'm not as active as I used to be, but I do still lurk - reading mostly instead of writing, including reported posts that require assistance.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #95 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:20 am 
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I'm still wondering... Will Svetlana's thread ever be unlocked?
Or did we permanently run off a potentially great contributor from our little community?


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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #96 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:21 am 
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What I think is:

1. Inactive mods should not be mods, take away the mod powers.
This way we know how many people are actively doing the work. It is meaningless to have a list of 50 admins if only two of the are active.

2. There should be enough mods so none of them feels too overworked.
So burn-out situations are avoided. I assume good mods are hard to find, and once we have one, we should treat him/her right not expect him/her to work like a horse. This also implies that the community be understanding when the admin needs to take a short break to avoid burnout. Admins need to take care of themselves as well. And I like the beer ideas. Any admins in SD?

3. Being a mod also implies that you are very open to criticism.
You should not be working that much *for* the community as *with* the community, and as such, your work should have a lot of give-and-take and certainly be open adjustment and moderation itself. You have to listen to the input you are given, or you are just a dictator. (This is just a general rule, and I am certainly not talking about any of the admins I know.)

4. It would help to have an admin log I have proposed before.
Like a list somewhere where the major admin actions can be logged. Not every spam removal or whatever, but when a thread is locked (many examples), or active contributor is banned (Jasiek situation), or go-related ad prevented (like the teacher ads.)

5. A limited-access sub-forum for community input would be very nice.
Somebody already suggested that.

--------------------

Still, the issue under discussion here is moderation levels and specifically teachers.
I really believe that teachers should be able to advertise their classes in here, its a perfect place. With emails, prices, and all that!
We already have book ads, software ads, website ads, and whatnot. People announce Go videos, and Go Schools. So why not teacher ads? Because they are more "personal"? I think this is splitting the hair too thin. Teacher adds are a good, go-related content which the community is very interested in. And teachers should be supported, not pushed away, especially pro-level teachers.

If the ads really grate at somebody - create a subforum for ads, teachers or otherwise, and that's that.
Although we already have a teachers subforum, no?
I really do not see what is the problem that.
Use common sense.

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Last edited by Bantari on Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #97 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:23 am 
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xed_over wrote:
I'm still wondering... Will Svetlana's thread ever be unlocked?
Or did we permanently run off a potentially great contributor from our little community?

Good question.

I think a personal email should be sent to her, with apologies, and explanation that her post sparkled a lively discussion which led to changes in TOS and opening the door for her and other teachers to post here. This way she will come welcome and hopefully use this forum in the future again in spite of the bad first impression.

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Post #98 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:37 am 
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Bantari wrote:
[..]

I think a personal email should be sent to her, with apologies, and explanation that her post sparkled a lively discussion which led to changes in TOS and opening the door for her and other teachers to post here. This way she will come welcome and hopefully use this forum in the future again in spite of the bad first impression.
This is A Very Good Idea™!

As soon as the censoring of Swetlana’s post surfaced here I sent her a PM, informing her that the case is being discussed, and I sent her a link to the comment in this thread where her post was mentioned. Hopefully she reads here.


Greetings, Tom

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #99 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:49 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
...
So are there users with mod capabilites unaware of their hidden powers? Do we need some Peter Parker moments?
No. Back when the forum was very slow, we asked for volunteers who knew PHP. One of the most qualified was a complete newcomer. I wanted to be able to accept his help, but there was no way that I was going to give him complete access to our code. So I asked Hyperpape, who had some technical knowledge, and who I felt that I could trust, to be the gatekeeper. He could pass code back and forth.
I don't know what was the result of this. The problem got fixed by some means, and so I never thought of it again until now.
I never considered revoking Hyperpape's access - and since he hasn't abused it, I probably never will.


daal wrote:
...ten mods/admins who are apparently utterly inactive. ...

This is not true. A quick glance shows that Araban was moving a thread to a better location a mere two days ago. Kirby deleted some spam in January. ( And that is just a quick scan of the logs by an old man with bad vision. )


Boidhre wrote:
...
From previous discussion, the details of mod actions are kept private out of the interesting belief that making them public may be legally actionable. Which seems at odds with the rest of the internet but, eh I know almost nothing about US law.

True. And often forgotten.


RBerenguel wrote:
...
Please, go players in the same city of a mod: gift them a beer or coffee. They deserve it ;)...
Thanks. But I travel a bit, so all members are potential donors. I may come knocking. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Moderation level
Post #100 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:34 pm 
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daal wrote:
I know it's fun to debate theoretical discrepancies, but the actual situation is not that we have too many mods, unless you count the ten mods/admins who are apparently utterly inactive. What we have is 2 admins/mods, one of whom is exhausted from the work/criticism, and another who thinks that there is no need for any more mods/admins and no functionality whatsoever for keeping them in line. In fact the catch-22 situation exists that the TOS asks that complaints about an admins actions should not be aired publicly, but rather in P.M.s to the admins who will then supposedly take care of the complaints about themselves.


Bantari wrote:
3. Being a mod also implies that you are very open to criticism.
You should not be working that much *for* the community as *with* the community, and as such, your work should have a lot of give-and-take and certainly be open adjustment and moderation itself. You have to listen to the input you are given, or you are just a dictator. (This is just a general rule, and I am certainly not talking about any of the admins I know.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder#Enforcing_sadist_.28compulsive_features.29

Unfortunately it's this kind of person that tends to stay when others get burned out and leave.
They may listen but they wouldn't be able to change even if they wanted to, they are doomed to repeat the same kind of behavior over and over.
Of course they are not the ones that should be blamed, but rather the "sensible" people that allows them to stay.

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