Life In 19x19
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which diagram format do you like better?
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=13820
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Author:  Jhyn [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

Kirby wrote:
Are the numbers and letters the main readability problem? Anything else that Charlie didn't mention?


It is hard to explain but my main issue is that the four images look really blurry to me, especially the lines (and everything in option 4). They are hard to focus on, if you see what I mean. Maybe it comes from the screenshot?

EdLee wrote:
Hi Jhyn, (off topic)


Sorry that I kinda derailed the thread with my French expressions :lol:

I would say it's really close in meaning to "Look a gift horse in the mouth". You are offered some soup to survive (for your benefit) and you spit in it to show it's not good enough. It's close to "Biting the hand that feeds you", but a bit softer; a feeling of ungratefulness rather that outright treason.

Author:  hyperpape [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

I think one difference that might be Jhyn's issue is that (without measuring), the lines in the old diagrams look like they're a single black pixel. On the new diagrams, they look like they might be two grey pixels, or maybe grey with anti-aliasing?

I voted for one, but I think it could be improved by making the lines crisper. It may be mere familiarity, but I had no aesthetic complaints with the old diagrams, so a technical upgrade that leaves the look the same would make me happy.

Author:  Kirby [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

Well, there are two reasons I started doing this:
1.) I needed something to take my mind off of other stuff going on in my life.
2.) I personally felt that the "old" format looked old-fashioned - purely an aesthetic concern.

It may very well be that I'm in the minority for #2 - it would seem that people are generally preferring the look of the old diagrams.

If that's the case, I don't think that a new implementation like the one I prototyped really buys us any real technical improvement, so it's probably not worth changing.

I'm totally fine if that's the case, since this was mainly started as a means to pass time.

Author:  Monadology [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

Would it be possible to get examples with actual board positions set up (so we can see how they would look 'in the wild')?

Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

You may have mainly been passing the time, but thank you for your efforts, Kirby. :D Developing and presenting different options to our members and getting feedback is well worth the effort, even if we do not change the format. Advise and consent, as they say. :)

Author:  Kirby [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

Monadology wrote:
Would it be possible to get examples with actual board positions set up (so we can see how they would look 'in the wild')?


You can use the tags yourself if you want to play with it. Just use the same tags I had in my original post ("go-beta", "go-beta2", "go-beta3"). The prototype isn't fully functional though, so you may find bugs.

If you don't want to make an actual post, previewing a post still renders the diagrams.

I haven't done anything further to make the images crisper or more readable. I don't feel that there is a reason to do this if a new color scheme or design isn't preferred to the existing diagrams.

Author:  Kirby [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

Bill Spight wrote:
You may have mainly been passing the time, but thank you for your efforts, Kirby. :D Developing and presenting different options to our members and getting feedback is well worth the effort, even if we do not change the format. Advise and consent, as they say. :)


Thanks, Bill. I agree :-)

Author:  Monadology [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go-beta]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go-beta]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go-beta]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go-beta]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go-beta]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go-beta]


[go-beta4]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go-beta4]

For those who want the reference (used the diagram from Kirby's prior thread)

Author:  Bonobo [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

I really, really, really like #2!

<edit>
Ideally, coloring scheme would be a user (i.e. reader) preference.

That way all such diagrams would use the color scheme a user/reader prefers, no matter which color the post/comment author prefers … but I have no idea whether such a thing would be possible (or worth investing time into, of course).
</edit>


<edit 2>
Maybe even with options here:
• always use the color scheme the author has edited the diagram in
• always have the user’s preferred color scheme override the author’s
</edit 2>

Author:  Kirby [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

Interesting idea, Bonobo. We already have the option for users to select themes. I think this is certainly possible to extend such that users can see the format they want (after logging in).

Author:  EdLee [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:05 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi Kirby, Tom,

Speaking of user preference: how about keep all 4 options available for each individual diagram, for all users ? :)

This way, if a user doesn't specify any style in particular, it's the default (whatever people vote for; I still vote for Option 1. :) )

But, a user can still pick which option to use, for each individual diagram.
This way, a user does not have to use the same option for all their diagrams ( even though it's changeable in preference ).

One downside is it means creating new [go] tags, one for each new option: [go] (default), [go1], [go2], [go3], etc.
Or, new diagram style tags, etc. :)

If this is implemented, a bonus is a user can use one style (e.g. Option 1) for the main game,
and another style (e.g. Option 2) for all the variations.
This is similar to the convention(s) used by some publications: big diagrams for the real game, smaller diagram(s) for all variations.

Very useful not just for Malkovich games, but for all discussions, I feel. :)

Real game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go-beta]$$B Real game
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . 5 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go-beta]

Variation 1:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go-beta]$$B Variation 1.
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 8 X . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go-beta]

Bug ?
Kirby, is there a bug with the $$W ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go-beta]$$W Bug ?
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 9 X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go-beta]

Above: bug ? Below: the current (expected) behavior with $$W :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 9 X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Kirby [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

Yes, that's a bug. There is still some work to do on the new ones.

If we actually want to pursue the other formats, I should look into making the letters and numbers more readable and make the lines crisper as has been suggested.

If we want full customization, we can provide multiple tags like you suggest, Ed, as well as an override option in the user control panel. The full functionality needs to be implemented for all diagrams, and I need to fix bugs like what you identified.

This is all feasible and not too hard, but it would be good to know if it's a forum feature that people would use before doing all of this.

Author:  EdLee [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
This is all feasible and not too hard, but it would be good to know if it's a forum feature that people would use before doing all of this.
Hi Kirby,

I like:
  • Anti-aliased circles/slanted lines ( beta ) ;
  • Crisp, 1-pixel width, grid lines ( current default ) ;
  • Option 1 & Option 2 ( beta ) ;
  • More readable numbers and letters ( beta ) ;
  • Prettier, solid, star points ( beta ) ;

I'd happily use all of the above. :)

Author:  ez4u [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

This morning option four looks like this on my iPad. I don't remember it being this dark yesterday when I first saw the OP.
Attachment:
IMG_0340.PNG
IMG_0340.PNG [ 199.75 KiB | Viewed 3461 times ]

Edit: The photo is from Chrome, it looks normal (wood) in Safari.

Author:  Kirby [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

ez4u,
That's because I haven't fixed the image texture preloading. In my own browser, it is black like that until I resubmit the post I am making. I haven't looked at fixing it since the texture doesn't seem popular anyway.

What you saw earlier was likely the screenshot image I took.

Ed,
I can implement what you described. I'll take a look into doing it shortly.

Author:  Bonobo [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: which diagram format do you like better?

Kirby, if I were the guy who is easily speechless then I’d be speechless :•)

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