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What should we use as a SGF viewer?
Flash Goban(Currently used) 7%  7%  [ 3 ]
Eidogo 83%  83%  [ 34 ]
Both 10%  10%  [ 4 ]
Other 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 41
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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #41 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:18 pm 
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pasky wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense for the reader to choose a display of preference, instead of the poster?


another possible feature to look into....

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #42 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:24 pm 
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Yeah, you can still use the flash one if you want, but I'd like to fix the EidoGo problems you're having.

I don't know why the variations don't appear on the board for that particular file. They're supposed to, and they usually do; I suspect EidoGo gets confused because black makes two moves in a row in one of the variations. White obviously plays tenuki, but I've usually seen that indicated in an SGF file with a pass. I'll see if I can fix EidoGo to show those variations properly (probably won't get to look at that until at least the weekend). However, in the mean time you can use the "sgf-full" tag which includes a variation tree through which you can navigate to the other variation.

As far as downloading the file, there is a button at the bottom of the player to download the SGF file, and it worked fine for me in that thread. Does that not work for you? It may be a browser compatibility issue - what web browser are you using?

As for the issue with making a play or passing - they can just step back a move to get back to where they were... Are you looking for some sort of revert feature to restore the variation tree to its original state? That's probably possible; I'll look into adding it. In the mean time, they can click refresh in their browser.

----

The problem with letting the reader choose which they prefer is that it would be extremely complicated to set up. We probably wouldn't be able to use bbcodes anymore, which means we'd probably have to modify the phpbb codebase, which would be a maintenance problem.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #43 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:44 pm 
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fwiffo wrote:
The problem with letting the reader choose which they prefer is that it would be extremely complicated to set up. We probably wouldn't be able to use bbcodes anymore, which means we'd probably have to modify the phpbb codebase, which would be a maintenance problem.


One way might be to put both eidogo and the flash viewer on the page, but make say the flash one hidden. Then put a button to toggle visibility between the two. I dunno if it's a desired feature, though.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #44 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:18 pm 
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fwiffo wrote:
Yeah, you can still use the flash one if you want, but I'd like to fix the EidoGo problems you're having.


Bueno! :)

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I don't know why the variations don't appear on the board for that particular file. They're supposed to, and they usually do; I suspect EidoGo gets confused because black makes two moves in a row in one of the variations. White obviously plays tenuki, but I've usually seen that indicated in an SGF file with a pass. I'll see if I can fix EidoGo to show those variations properly (probably won't get to look at that until at least the weekend). However, in the mean time you can use the "sgf-full" tag which includes a variation tree through which you can navigate to the other variation.


Variation trees sound nice. :) As for evaluation files, which I often post, you want to have either player move first in a variation. (That is also useful in ordinary comments, when you want to show a threat or aji. :))

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As far as downloading the file, there is a button at the bottom of the player to download the SGF file, and it worked fine for me in that thread. Does that not work for you? It may be a browser compatibility issue - what web browser are you using?


It doesn't show up. I am using Safari.

BTW, the color contrast on the EIdogo display is not very good. It makes a lot of the text hard to read. Even the board coordinates. :(

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As for the issue with making a play or passing - they can just step back a move to get back to where they were...


Not in my experience. For instance, if I am looking at the board and happen to press the pass button, I can no longer play the original game. Pressing play just makes a pass.

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Are you looking for some sort of revert feature to restore the variation tree to its original state? That's probably possible; I'll look into adding it. In the mean time, they can click refresh in their browser.


Well, if you are simply viewing a file, why have the functionality to make plays, and so on? However, if you can, say, add a variation or make a comment, and then copy the new file and use it in a reply, that would be very nice. :)

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #45 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:43 pm 
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If you'd like to use the one with the variation tree, just use [sgf-full] instead of [sgf]. It's possible I messed up a configuration option that's causing the problems you experienced with variations (there's a few other things that are acting not as expected, so I will look into that more). If not, then it's a bug and I will try to fix it when I have time to dig into the EidoGo code. Either way, when I fix that, it should also get around the issue you're having where you can't get back to the main variation after playing a different move (though again, in the mean time, using [sgf-full] will let you do so by navigating the variation tree).

I will try to get the download button working in Safari. I knew that it didn't work in some older browsers like IE6, but I'm surprised it's not working for Safari users. It may work if you embed the SGF by url instead of inline. But I'll try to get it working both ways, though it may require some work. I plan to get a "copy to clipboard" option working too, which is one of the reasons why I left some of the edit controls turned on. EidoGo has some hooks in it for exporting both SGF and Sensei's-style diagrams in different ways. So theoretically, at some point, someone could post a game for review, you could add variations and comments in-browser, and then post the resulting sgf immediately without having to use an external SGF editor at all.

Making an alternate color scheme for EidoGo isn't too hard, I'll try to make something that's higher-contrast. I'd really actually like to have a custom theme for the forum and theme EidoGo to match color-wise. It's also possible to make the theme have larger stones if people don't like the current size.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #46 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:59 am 
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fwiffo wrote:
There isn't an exact analog to that, but you can press the appropriate alphanumeric that corresponds to the label on the board or its variation number (which should also display on the board). E.g. if you hit 2ddb11 on eidogo.com you'll find yourself navigating the avalanche joseki. :D


Nice feature ;)

fwiffo wrote:
As for the issue with making a play or passing - they can just step back a move to get back to where they were... Are you looking for some sort of revert feature to restore the variation tree to its original state? That's probably possible; I'll look into adding it. In the mean time, they can click refresh in their browser.


Wouldn't it be better to just disable editing by default?

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #47 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:45 am 
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Well, people might want to still try out their own variations in a posted SGF file. They have to select a tool or click "pass" before they can screw up the tree.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #48 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:47 am 
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Luckily the vast majority voted for eidogo. I did so, too. The reason is that I have simply uninstalled flash. That's because it makes noise on the browser all the time and you cannot switch it off. Flash suxxxxx. I'm done with that.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #49 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:54 pm 
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Many thanks for taking on the task, fwiffo! I'm sure everything will be cool. :)

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #50 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:25 am 
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EidoGo, because the lay-out is nice,
resp. all info better readable than FlashGoban's.

The direct upload functionality is best!

If the size of EidoGo's board can be adjusted (to big)
what could one wish more?
(e.g. reading all kind of SGF tags ...)

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #51 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:05 am 
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karaklis wrote:
The reason is that I have simply uninstalled flash. That's because it makes noise on the browser all the time and you cannot switch it off. Flash suxxxxx. I'm done with that.


Flash does not "suxxxxx". Flash is a fantastic platform for releasing rich gui applications, nothing comes close in terms of features and widespread adoption.

What is true is that flash has been used in some unfortunate ways, and it has something of a lousy reputation for painful adverts and the like. That doesn't mean flash is bad, just that some people have used it in bad ways. Should HTML 5 get more traction, I assure that you'll be bombarded with awful applications using that technology too.

Personally I prefer the flash goban application, in terms of its implementation and features it's currently superior to eidogo, which continues to feel rather brittle to me (although its steadily improving).

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #52 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:05 am 
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quantumf wrote:
Flash does not "suxxxxx". Flash is a fantastic platform for releasing rich gui applications, nothing comes close in terms of features and widespread adoption.
I don't deny that you can do fantastic things with flash, but as long as there is no control that allows switching off sound permanently, it will remain uninstalled on my computer. I am really fed up with all the unwanted noise that comes from flash ad banners.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #53 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:47 am 
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karaklis wrote:
quantumf wrote:
Flash does not "suxxxxx". Flash is a fantastic platform for releasing rich gui applications, nothing comes close in terms of features and widespread adoption.
I don't deny that you can do fantastic things with flash, but as long as there is no control that allows switching off sound permanently, it will remain uninstalled on my computer. I am really fed up with all the unwanted noise that comes from flash ad banners.

Interesting. I have Flash installed. I use use Firefox with Adblock Plus. I don't remember when was the last time I encountered a Flash application that annoyed me with unwanted noise.

(An exception is Flash games, but it is because I choose to visit the site to play them, i.e., they are not advertisements, and most well-behaved Flash games offer the option to mute.)

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #54 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:19 am 
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unkx80 wrote:
Interesting. I have Flash installed. I use use Firefox with Adblock Plus. I don't remember when was the last time I encountered a Flash application that annoyed me with unwanted noise.

(An exception is Flash games, but it is because I choose to visit the site to play them, i.e., they are not advertisements, and most well-behaved Flash games offer the option to mute.)


Same here...

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #55 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:30 am 
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I do the same, but flash is an unstable CPU and memory hog. Even if I turn it on only for "trusted" sites like YouTube or here, it will crash my browser periodically, or just quit working. I marvel that anyone has had a positive experience with flash. Still, I know some people prefer the flash thing, so I'm working on a solution that lets viewers choose which they prefer.

I would also like to know of any specific problems people have with EidoGo, since I'd like to improve it enough to make the flash version completely unnecessary in the long-term.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #56 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:58 am 
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fwiffo wrote:
I do the same, but flash is an unstable CPU and memory hog. Even if I turn it on only for "trusted" sites like YouTube or here, it will crash my browser periodically, or just quit working. I marvel that anyone has had a positive experience with flash. Still, I know some people prefer the flash thing, so I'm working on a solution that lets viewers choose which they prefer.

I would also like to know of any specific problems people have with EidoGo, since I'd like to improve it enough to make the flash version completely unnecessary in the long-term.

I voted "Both", but I meant "Any". In other words, I am perfectly okay if the Flash SGF viewer is replaced by Eidogo.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #57 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:16 pm 
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fwiffo wrote:
The problem with the invisible stones has a fix ...
What is the fix? I have that problem will all games posted here, although the Eidogo site works fine.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #58 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:55 pm 
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I don't know what the problem could be, but I know you should say what browser you're using, at least.

I don't have it, all games seem to work.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #59 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:25 pm 
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The fix is in place, so it should work just fine. What web browser and version are you using? If you're using Internet Explorer 6, you should upgrade. It makes no more sense to write fixes for IE6 any more than it would to write them for NCSA Mosaic.

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 Post subject: Re: SGF VIEWER FLASHGOBAN Or EIDOGO
Post #60 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:05 pm 
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Yes, I have IE6, so I will see if I can upgrade. Meanwhile I have another computer with Firefox which works fine, so I am in business. Thanks for the help.

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