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 Post subject: Zen 'tricks' 9p in large avalanche
Post #1 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:26 pm 
Tengen

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In one of the DeepZenGo online training games Yamashiro Hiroshi 9p had to resign early when Zen 'tricked' him after a new variatio of an old large avalanche joseki. I say 'trick' in quotes as Zen doesn't have motives like "let's play this move and hope he doesn't see the right answer", Zen just played a move it correctly read as sente, presumably expected him to answer and then would be happy with the continuation, but Yamashiro didn't think it was sente and played where Zen's nice follow up would have been, and got punished. I'm going on memory from seeing it on WBaduk a few days ago, so lower side might be a little wrong.

Zen played the outward turn, the old variation of the large avalanche before Go Seigen invented the inward turn. Bots do seem fond of this move. 7 is a major turning point in the joseki: black can also hane on the outside to build thickness and sacrifice the 3 stones at the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B DeepZenGo (black) vs Yamashiro Hiroshi 9p
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 8 2 X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 6 O 1 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


With 10 white could also extend on the top, and then black hanes on the outside and it's another order of getting to those variations. The atari and hanging connection threatens to capture black's 5 stones, so normally black will continue with a or b to (almost) capture the corner (still some bad aji or outside turns sente), maybe peeping at c at some point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm10
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . O a . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O X X X O b . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But instead Zen played atari on the outside, sacrificing the 5 stones! This was in fact the pro move in the first occurrence of this corner position in my GoGoD: Fujisawa Kuranosuke 6d played it as black vs Mitsuhara Itaro 6d in the 1942 Oteai, but none since. I think locally speaking it's good for white, but on this board it does make a very thick shape a good extension from black's shimari on the top side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 1 O O X X X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Note that black didn't peep, it's very important for what happens next. Zen crawled and got some forcing moves on the outside. If white extended at a (or hane, then hane once first?) I suppose Zen would approach at b (I think the lower right was a 4-4).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X O O X X X O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O 6 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 3 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But Yamshiro had had enough of being pushed around and played the pincer/corner-enclosure/where Zen wanted to play next. But big mistake: Zen played a powerful double hane and throw in and Yamashiro ran out of liberties and resigned!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X O O X X X O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The continuation of connect-and-die in case you can't see it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm26
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X O O X X X O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 6 1 O O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . O X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 4 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by 7 people: apetresc, Drew, ez4u, gamesorry, Hushfield, jeromie, jptavan
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 Post subject: Re: Zen 'tricks' 9p in large avalanche
Post #2 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:35 pm 
Lives in gote

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Thanks, Uberdude. I always appreciate the interesting positions you point out from pro games.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 'tricks' 9p in large avalanche
Post #3 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:24 pm 
Lives in gote

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Do you remember what's the time setting of this match?

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 'tricks' 9p in large avalanche
Post #4 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:46 pm 
Dies in gote

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I have seen a lot of Deepzen training games and some of them are really interesting. How about a study group on Deepzen?

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 'tricks' 9p in large avalanche
Post #5 Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:52 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4120
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pookpooi wrote:
Do you remember what's the time setting of this match?

I don't know, I think this series has a variety of time settings: I've seen some games last several hours, but the one happening right now has a 10 second byo yomi. I've seen others with 30 and 60 second byo-yomi periods.

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