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 Post subject: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #1 Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Alphago is top dog - Ke Jie is almost obsequious towards her opinion in his post-match reviews with Fan Hui, frequently referring to himself as "mortal". Ke Jie is the best a man can get, but he clearly sees that he can learn from Alfie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIu9P9wEIsc

So can we.

But Alfie is, as yet, almost mute - her many convolutions (more than 12 layers now, we are told) do see something, but it will be a long time (if ever) before anyone comes up with a way to "translate" what convolutions "see" into language that makes sense to people.

So she is a dark magician, unable to communicate more than the wink of win%. However, that alone is still instructive, in that it provides a clue. When Ke Jie makes a move that Alfie reckons reduces his wink, Ke Jie recognises that there's something weak about it, even if Alfie can't tell him what that weakness is, beyond showing as many variations as he can digest. So, armed with the clue, during his discussions with Fan Hui, Ke Jie embarks on his own projections, but even there, he often found that Alfie disagrees with him on the very next move of the lookahead tree, so the mystery only deepened.

There are at least three ways mere mortals can learn something from the dark master - one is to do what Ke Jie and Fan Hui did, and ask Alfie for her variations. Definitely a worthwhile exercise, but very much a Sisyphean struggle up a slippery slope, for more often than not, each step only opens up another dark forest of mysteries and you (as did they) end up sliding further down the slope of understanding than when you (they) started. It's a miracle Ke Jie's hands are still attached to his arms, he threw them up in the air so often!

If the world champion is still confused by Alfie, what chance do even more mortal weakheads like us have??

Well, one thing we can do is what i've noticed many of my own opps doing - try out a few experiments of our own, doing things like shoulder hit + tenuki, early 3-3 invasions and double jumps on the 4th line, all things that anyone can do, even if unlike her darkness they can't project the implications of such ploys over the next 200 moves.

A 3rd way to learn from Alfie is to ask "See what i mean", described in:
https://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/icgo

If Swim predicts an Alfie move, it can explain why that move is good, in a simple pictorial language that any kyu can understand. For example, see:
1. the discussion starting at 10:24 in "Demis and Noam" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RSiORA ... a3Hl1X_v-S
2. Swim's prediction and explanation of "Jue Yi's New Move", at 14:47 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSVi8n4 ... a3Hl1X_v-S and its prediction and explanation of a move very similar in spirit to Alfie's at 19:47 in the same video.

When Swim doesn't predict Alfie's move, it can draw 'before' and 'after' pictures for you to see and compare for yourself - pictures of colour and shadow maps, moyos and paths, to form your own impression of the local and global effects of Alfie's move, without having to read out possible continuations. An example of this is reported in
"Swimming with Alphago" https://ssrn.com/abstract=2934932

Swim is still only a paper tiger, so you would have to draw the pictures yourself, following its algorithms. To help you do this, pnprog has programmed the first of them - its colour map - which you can use as your starting point.
https://github.com/pnprog/gomap

PS of course, unless you are Fan Hui. you can't ask Alfie. But you could ask Leela et al.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #2 Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:46 am 
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here's a 4th way: have gomap draw 2 pictures for you, one of the position after your move, and the other of the position after the different move suggested by your oracle.

here's an example - can you see which position is better for black?
Attachment:
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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #3 Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:12 pm 
Judan

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How are you doing these days, djhbrown?

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #4 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:31 am 
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Kirby wrote:
How are you doing these days, djhbrown?
if you mean, how is my Go study doing, i am enjoying Leela teaching me a few things - indirectly of course - but by seeing what it would have done in my position (with follow-ups), and by noticing how it changes its mind, i am reminded of the necessity for reading - and also to not give way so easily!

How is your own Go study doing? Do you have an answer to my question about which position you think is better for black, and why??

Perhaps i should mention that the gomap picture shows tight connections (solid colour links) and loose ones (dashed colour links); tight links define anticipated territory, and loose links influence.

...if anyone recognises the position, please do not spoil it for others by telling the answer before they have a chance to think for themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #5 Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:33 am 
Tengen

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A few questions/comments:
- Who/what suggested q2? It seems dubious to me, as it does not fix either of black's problems (m2 and r3) in that corner well.
- Following on from above, I would use reading rather than this kind of influence map to make judgements about who will get the corner territory.
- In both diagrams I feel that the single white stone at e8 is giving an undue amount of influence on the intersections above e.g. d9 e9. Whilst it is a pleasing peep, it has few liberties and is plastered against a black wall so I think allowances for that should be made when algorithmicly computing your influence map function. As a first idea, simply scale a stone's influence radiating power by the number of liberties it has.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #6 Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:06 am 
Gosei

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There is no need to compute influence maps.

If you follow Mizokami's heuristic of dividing the board into relevant halves and choose the most active one, you count the number of stones for each side and then decide how to play. Here Black has fewer stones in the lower half and so is required to defend. He has two groups so he defends the weaker one. Easy-peasy.

Mizokami's method may sound too simplistic but, if you think about it, the number of stones present represents a measure of relative influence, especially if you make the assumption that the moves so far have been efficient This works very well for pro games. It can work well even for amateur dan players.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #7 Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
I feel that the single white stone at e8 is giving an undue amount of influence on the intersections above
Well spotted! Yes, there is an error in the shadow map shown - I had forgotten that gomap implements the old shadow map algorithm in "Commonsense Go" which didn't do quite what i had intended; the new and improved algorithm is in "The Hierarchy of the Imagination" with a more efficient version of it in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u52Pnhomfs&index=31&list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S

ok, so, let's go back a step:

if you were black, where would you play now, and why?
Attachment:
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26.png [ 21.79 KiB | Viewed 455 times ]

Swim will look at your answers, and tell you what it thinks of them.

This isn't a competition, so there's no point in cheating by asking your own oracle or checking your answer by laying it out on a board - just think about it. Please mention your Go rank, so we can start to see the different ways that players of different ranks think. The position comes from a pro game; if you have seen the pros' commentary, please don't spoil it for others by telling what they said; I will tell you the URL after you have worked out your own answers.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #8 Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:56 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Black .. in the lower half ... is required to defend. He has two groups so he defends the weaker one. Easy-peasy.
which group is weaker? why? how should black defend it?

In the actual game, Alphago (black) played at C9. Ke Jie said (that at the time) he didn't think it was important, but now he gets it... black doesn't have an urgent move at the bottom; Fan Hui said Nie Wei Ping admired C9, but that normally it's hard to imagine that black would respond there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUZxe7bXKxo&t=666s

C9 defends the heavy black group (which has little influence for the number of stones it comprises) by running out, but Swim sees that it also cuts white's sector line B8-D16, erasing white's upper left side moyo, so it's a double-purpose move.

Attachment:
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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #9 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:07 am 
Tengen

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Some other moves which cut your sector lines, does Swim find them equally praiseworthy?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #10 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:14 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
other moves which cut your sector lines, does Swim find them equally praiseworthy?
Are you worried about someone else's sector lines ?

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #11 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:57 am 
Tengen

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djhbrown wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
other moves which cut your sector lines, does Swim find them equally praiseworthy?
Are you worried about someone else's sector lines ?

No

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #12 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
No
Why do you say "No" ?

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #13 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:48 pm 
Tengen

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It is the answer to the question you asked me.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 ways to learn from the dark magician
Post #14 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:28 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
It is the answer to the question you asked me.
Why do you think I asked you ?

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