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 Post subject: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #1 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:34 am 
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Let us have a look at this game. I would like know your fellow human opinions on some of the moves.

Lee Jihyun (m), 9p - Lee Changho, 9p, B+R (Komi 6.5)
year 2018 Korean League, round 14, 2018-10-06



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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #2 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:36 am 
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Move 13 is the first play I am curious about.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move is popular with the pros, but the play at a has a much higher winrate (72% in 30 games > 48% in 152 games) on Waltheri's http://ps.waltheri.net/248432/. Nontheless the play at B12 is also still popular in recent pro games. Elf shows a 14% drop for this move. What do you think about the both options B12 and E14?

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #3 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:55 am 
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Move 46 is the next move that puzzles me. This is not the way white should play in this shape in my opinion. Elf shows a 10% loss and recommends a play at a or b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . b X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O O . O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I want to sharpen my opinion on this shape and want to show you what I think right now (which may be flawed):

I (and my pro database) consider these moves from a to f to be good candidate moves for white in relation to the black keima shape:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . .
$$ . b a X . . .
$$ . d . . f . .
$$ . . O . X . .
$$ . . . . c . .
$$ . . . . . . .[/go]



This is not a valid candidate move! (Not to mention I managed to blunder this one today in one of my games, allthough I should know the keima and its properties already.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . .
$$ . . . X . . .
$$ . . . P . . .
$$ . . O . X . .
$$ . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #4 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:37 am 
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No 3-3 invasions and playing gote moves to make shape, what is this, 2015? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #5 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:50 am 
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This is Lee Changho :tmbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #6 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:01 pm 
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Some more pro games with the discussed the shape.

(I am aware that this not a pure shape issue but depending on the board position and tactics, but nevertheless in these games the discussed move is questionable too and the play at a probably superior.)

Cho Hanseung, 9p - Park Yeonghun, 9p, W+0.5 (Komi 6.5)
19th Korean Maxim Cup, final 3, 2018-04-23:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X X X . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O O O , . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . . O Z . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




Yamada Kimio, 9p - So Kofuku, 9p, W+R (Komi 6.5)
25th Japanese Ryusei, group C, 2016-02-04:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , Z O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O . X . O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . X X . . . a . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . O X O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X O O . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X . O O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O X X X X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . O X O O O X X , . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . . O O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | O X X X X X O . . . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




Xiao Zhenghao, 9p - Chen Shiyuan, 9p, W+2.5 (Komi 6.5)
11th Taiwan Guoshou, title match #3, 2015-12-01:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O Z . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Cho Hunhyun, 9p - Cho Chikun, 9p, W+T (Komi 6.5)
Memorial - 70th anniversary of modern Korean Go, 2015-07-26:


(tongue in cheek example)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X X . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . O , O O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O Z . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a O X . X . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O X X O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O . . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #7 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:27 pm 
Oza
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But notice that none of your examples fit the 'pure' shape that you showed above. All have extra stones close by. The general theory may support arm-chair critiques, but is not necessarily relevant when the pros get down and dirty.
:)

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #8 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:42 pm 
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I just keep the eyes open for this shape in my own games. In all the shown pro games the alternative move is considered better by elf.

I am still prone to make this move in a pure keima situation where it is clearly bad in my own games. In the discussed shape (were the move sometimes makes sense) it is at least worthwhile not to play this move too fast and check the alternatives thoroughly first. This is my personal consequence from percieving the significant elf winrate loss in the Lee Changho game.

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #9 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:14 pm 
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Gomoto wrote:
What do you think about the both options B12 and E14?


Both are joseki and it's early enough in the game that I wouldn't think either is really bad off the top of my head. I am nowhere near strong enough to judge this. Maybe ELF is lazy about reading ladders and just avoids variations that depend on it more?

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #10 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:02 am 
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Is 10% that big for Elf, though? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #11 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:29 am 
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Let us have a look at some pro games and try to explore elfs reasoning.

Attachment:
strange1.jpg
strange1.jpg [ 177.56 KiB | Viewed 134 times ]


Attachment:
strange2.jpg
strange2.jpg [ 176.14 KiB | Viewed 134 times ]


Last edited by Gomoto on Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:41 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #12 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:33 am 
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At move 46, if white plays at b and black plays an atari at N12, what should white do? Play at M12?

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"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #13 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:39 am 
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... elf's continuations:


Attachment:
strange3.jpg
strange3.jpg [ 179.01 KiB | Viewed 131 times ]



Attachment:
strange4.jpg
strange4.jpg [ 177.6 KiB | Viewed 131 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #14 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:41 am 
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And in the Lee Changho game:

Attachment:
strange5.jpg
strange5.jpg [ 161.75 KiB | Viewed 131 times ]


Attachment:
strange6.jpg
strange6.jpg [ 164.78 KiB | Viewed 129 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #15 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:47 am 
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elf's continuations

Attachment:
strange8.jpg
strange8.jpg [ 166.76 KiB | Viewed 128 times ]


Attachment:
strange7.jpg
strange7.jpg [ 163.27 KiB | Viewed 128 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #16 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:51 am 
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alternative continuations:

Attachment:
strange9.jpg
strange9.jpg [ 164.33 KiB | Viewed 128 times ]


Attachment:
strange10.jpg
strange10.jpg [ 166.33 KiB | Viewed 127 times ]


Last edited by Gomoto on Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #17 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am 
Judan

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Elom wrote:
Is 10% that big for Elf, though? :)


A less than 3% difference appears to be within Elf's margin of error at a setting of 100K playouts (which does not mean that the most frequent option gets that many playouts). To increase the margin of error to 10% probably means a setting of 10K playouts or fewer.

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #18 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:01 am 
Judan

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Gomoto wrote:
Let us have a look at some pro games and try to explore elfs reasoning.

Attachment:
strange1.jpg


Attachment:
strange2.jpg


Please note the Black stone at N-03. That stone supports the Black stone at K-03.

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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #19 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:01 am 
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Next pro game:

Jiang Weijie, 9p - Park Junghwan, 9p, W+R (Komi 7.5)
18th Chinese League A, round 14, 2016-10-08


Attachment:
strange11.jpg
strange11.jpg [ 160.65 KiB | Viewed 126 times ]


Attachment:
strange12.jpg
strange12.jpg [ 160.92 KiB | Viewed 125 times ]


Attachment:
strange13.jpg
strange13.jpg [ 162.18 KiB | Viewed 123 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Post #20 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:10 am 
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one more pro game:

Attachment:
strange15.jpg
strange15.jpg [ 167.4 KiB | Viewed 119 times ]


Attachment:
strange14.jpg
strange14.jpg [ 168.01 KiB | Viewed 120 times ]

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