It is currently Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:24 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #1 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:42 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1071
Location: Earth
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 173
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I dont think tenuki is an option here. One cant play a move like 2. What is your opinion?


Last edited by Gomoto on Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #2 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:45 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8323
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 312
Was liked: 1906
GD Posts: 312
Hi Gomoto, what does the engine say about the tenuki ? :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #3 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:50 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1071
Location: Earth
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 173
Attachment:
tenuki.jpg
tenuki.jpg [ 159.54 KiB | Viewed 1052 times ]


I am very interested in games were you think a tenuki after the 3-3 invasion in the fuseki is the better option. I cant remember one occasion were the tenuki is a good move during the fuseki.


This post by Gomoto was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #4 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:51 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1071
Location: Earth
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 173
Attachment:
tenuki2.jpg
tenuki2.jpg [ 158.7 KiB | Viewed 1051 times ]


This post by Gomoto was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #5 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:27 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8323
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 312
Was liked: 1906
GD Posts: 312
Hi Gomoto, thanks. About -10% winrate for :b7:.


This post by EdLee was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #6 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:46 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1071
Location: Earth
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 173
For starters some more examples were tenuki was a bad idea:

Chinen Kaori 6p - Fujisawa Rina 4p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5)
37th Japanese Female Honinbo, round 3, 2018-07-16


Attachment:
ten1.jpg
ten1.jpg [ 159.93 KiB | Viewed 1007 times ]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #7 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:48 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1071
Location: Earth
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 173
Park Junghwan 9p - Park Yeonghun 9p, W+Resign (Komi 7.5)
3rd Mlily Cup, final 1, 2017-12-30


Attachment:
ten2.jpg
ten2.jpg [ 162.6 KiB | Viewed 1006 times ]


Attachment:
ten3.jpg
ten3.jpg [ 164.47 KiB | Viewed 1006 times ]


This post by Gomoto was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #8 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:33 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8323
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 312
Was liked: 1906
GD Posts: 312
Hi Gomoto, thanks.

Chinen Kaori 6p (W) - Fujisawa Rina 4p (B+Resign)
Park Junghwan 9p (W+Resign) - Park Yeonghun 9p (B)

Who's B and W in each case ? Oh, it's in the screenshot; thanks.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #9 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:20 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 183
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 108
I don't think playing tenuki after 3x3 invasion is such a big deal - it is as if one started with 3x3, then the opponent played 4x4 later.

The 10% drop in winrate as measured by AI sounds big, but for human players that may not make a lot of difference either.

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #10 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:26 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1071
Location: Earth
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 173
Nobody said an early 4-4 over 3-3 is a good option ;-) (It is not the same by the way)

10% winrate drop is one aspect. You may check the winrates in your pro database also (Not as clear as the 10-15% winrate drop, which is pretty significant in my opinion, but also pointing in the same direction).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #11 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:42 pm 
Judan

Posts: 5374
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 299
Was liked: 2835
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
I rarely saw AlphaGo play tenuki from 3-3 invasion but don't recall if it was in self-play game or teaching tool so could be hard to find. Doesn't mean it's the best move though or LZ/Elf would like it.


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #12 Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:10 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 183
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 108
Gomoto wrote:
Nobody said an early 4-4 over 3-3 is a good option ;-)


Indeed, it is not the only option.
In the particular game you showed, it looks like the 4x4 player wanted to play a forcing move first, to have their opponent decide, then they would decide in turn which side to block the 3x3 invasion. Of course, they were aware that the opponent may play tenuki.

Gomoto wrote:
10% winrate drop is one aspect. You may check the winrates in your pro database also (Not as clear as the 10-15% winrate drop, which is pretty significant in my opinion, but also pointing in the same direction).


I know what you mean, I agree that a 10% drop is mathematically important. However, I admire the pros that don't blindly follow Leela Zero's percentages, but rather play based on their own ideas (until convinced otherwise).

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com


This post by sorin was liked by: Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #13 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:32 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1071
Location: Earth
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 173
I am not the only one arguing you should not play tenuki:

Cho Hun-heyon: one should never ignore a shoulder hit (Lectures on Go Techniques)



I did learn this rule quite late and improved a lot when I finally stick to it. (Ok it is a reversed shoulder hit in this case ;-) )

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #14 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:17 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 183
Liked others: 135
Was liked: 108
Gomoto wrote:
I am not the only one arguing you should not play tenuki:

Cho Hun-heyon: one should never ignore a shoulder hit (Lectures on Go Techniques)

I did learn this rule quite late and improved a lot when I finally stick to it. (Ok it is a reversed shoulder hit in this case ;-) )


It is exactly "proverbs" like the one you quote ("never do...", "always do...") that resulted in blind spots even at the highest levels of human pros.

AlphaGo's greatest achievement in my view is that it helped to break free of misconceptions.

I hope we can avoid proverbs as arguments about why a specific move is better or worse, as I think that would be a step backwards, and it would also make my allergy to proverbs worse :-)

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com


This post by sorin was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #15 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:30 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1071
Location: Earth
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 173
Fair enough.

It is my style to never tenuki after the 3-3 invasion ;-)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #16 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:55 pm 
Judan

Posts: 5374
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 299
Was liked: 2835
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Tenuki being a good response to shoulder hit in a decent chunk of cases is one of the main lessons from Alpha Go (but also it shoulder hits more so maybe the preponderance of these tenukis are in reply to the new shoulder hits). Here's an example from teaching tool analysis of a Master vs pro game, or there's the standard opening of AG Zero as white vs AG Master: e g. http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... /6/move/16. The pre-pincer 2 space jump saying "go on, split me and I'll attack your heavy wall or at least settle in its shadow" is now a standard part of the go vocabulary e.g Shin Jinseo yesterday move 39 after a push up http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/77393. Or directly move 46 http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/72995. Master vs pro example http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... 10/move/34 . Note that while locally a tenuki these responses are not really a global tenuki as it preemptively reduces the value of the block as followup from the ignored shoulder hit (tenuki to less obviously related part of the board is rarer).


This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #17 Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:10 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1071
Location: Earth
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 173
ELF agrees on these kind of tenukis:

Attachment:
tena1.jpg
tena1.jpg [ 157.46 KiB | Viewed 767 times ]


This post by Gomoto was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
Post #18 Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:57 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4190
Location: North Carolina
Liked others: 432
Was liked: 684
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 3k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . a O . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


AlphaGo teach slightly prefers b to a here.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group