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 Post subject: How is your positional judgement? Game 25
Post #1 Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:45 pm 
Honinbo

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Game 25

After :w26: Elf estimates the winrate for one player as 88½% with 43.4k playouts. Which player is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :D

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25
Post #2 Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:42 am 
Gosei
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White has more control over the corners, while Black seems to have been forced at the bottom. This looks like one of those ancient games with preset handicap.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25
Post #3 Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:42 am 
Tengen
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According to my reading, black is dead in the lower right even with sente. Add to that the fact that white has the first 3-3 point, and a computer will think that white is ahead.

I'm not saying that white is better here, I'm saying that Elf thinks that white is better.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25
Post #4 Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:06 am 
Honinbo

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This game looks weird.

After reading some of uberdude’s analyses, I’ve come to like the idea of analyzing which side has made more mistakes.

Here, it looks like black has been playing more “weird”, especially in the bottom left.

So I think white is leading.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25
Post #5 Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:20 pm 
Lives in gote

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Knotwilg wrote:
White has more control over the corners, while Black seems to have been forced at the bottom. This looks like one of those ancient games with preset handicap.


Looks like a shin fuseki game, with an early tengen

But yeah, I also prefer white

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25
Post #6 Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:25 pm 
Gosei
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LZ:

White is ahead


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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25
Post #7 Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:32 pm 
Dies in gote

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Bill -
I flipped through a book and found this game in a couple of minutes - <sad>. Keep up with these studies - even though I recognise/guess some of the games, they are scary and thought provoking!

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25
Post #8 Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:55 pm 
Honinbo

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@Tilley

John Tilley wrote:
Bill -
I flipped through a book and found this game in a couple of minutes - <sad>. Keep up with these studies - even though I recognise/guess some of the games, they are scary and thought provoking!


A spooky game, yes. ;) As I was replaying games in the Elf commentaries, I remembered this game, both from a recent book and from my kyu days. I can't say I learned anything from it then, but it made quite an impression on me at the time. :)

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— Winona Adkins

"Once in a very great while his eyes light up for a moment, and he says "Whee!" very quietly."
— Lion Miller

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25
Post #9 Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:03 pm 
Lives with ko

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First I thought it's an ancient game, but then there should be a diagonal opening not a parallel one. Shinfuseki with probably :b1: on tengen.

So, was tengen worth it? If I were black I'd hope for some weak white groups to chase around or some ladder business going on with tengen as the universal ladder breaker/enabler. I don't see neither. Can black arrange something like this with its next move? White's lonely L6-stone was answered on the inside by black K5, so the white stone can be sacrificed. I see no way to provoke a weak white group. The black right is too weak to live and cut something off. The moyo at the upper right has too many entry points for my taste and an open 3-3, so that I expect white to go in at the 3-3 and then reduce the resulting moyo from the outside, againg not ending up with a chasable group. Black can invade the upper left corner, but with the white stone at G16 I don't think that white's wall can end up being a weak group. That's my kyu vision. Happy taking white and claiming to have thwarted black's tengen opening.


And thanks Bill for staging this series! I highly appreciate it.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25
Post #10 Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:28 am 
Lives with ko

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White, but not for any clear and good reason. Black's position just feels incoherent to me. I have no idea what I'd do next as black. Reminds me a little of the pre-AlphaGo MCTS bots.

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